Sex and Love Addiction Podcast Interview with Dr. Robert Weiss, PhD

The Recovering CEO  0:30  
Hello, and welcome to the recovering CEO podcast and video podcast. My name is Derek, I'm the recovering co live here from Ann Arbor, Michigan where it does snow. And I'm talking to a wonderful person, Robert Weiss. He's a PhD Chief Clinical Officer at seeking integrity. He is has his own podcast on sex and love addiction. Dr. Rob is specialists for the family. And he helps with partners of people who have addiction. And he's an amazing guy. So how are you today? Dr. Rob? Well, I'm not in the snow.

Dr. Rob Weiss  1:05  
And I think I'm pretty good. You know what, every day is a new day. So I will take it one day at a time. Today is a good day, and I get to talk to you, which is even better. Yeah, I'm really pleased to meet you. I've you know, I've listened to your podcast. And I know you always bring on some experts. And it's really nice to have an expert here, you know, the recovering CEO, we're here to help people who may be suffering from addiction.

The Recovering CEO  1:26  
You know, as you know, I've been sober 25 years from drugs and alcohol addiction. But even at all that time I realized that other addictions, you could call them character defects. Were kicking my butt. You know, I deal with food addiction, gambling addiction, I've struggled with, you know, some boundaries around sex addiction. And it really made me realize that all addictions can can kill. And so I wanted to bring you on as an expert. You know, can you tell us a little bit about what you do and how you help people?

Dr. Rob Weiss  1:54  
Yeah, I would say my expertise is in, in the broadest sense and intimacy disorders, that I work with men and women who have great difficulty building meaningful relationships without running away from them at the same time. And the way that the people I work with run away from their issues is with sex, or porn, or infidelity, cheating. And I'm not just talking about your average affair, and the people I work with have compulsive patterns of sexual acting out or romantic behavior over and over and over again, and they can't stop. And there are plenty of people who are losing careers because they had an affair of the workplace, or they're flirting with a co worker, you know, so it does fit into your arena, but people show up with from from all places with these issues.

The Recovering CEO  2:37  
Okay, so intimacy disorder, so that, you know, so that's interesting to me, because a lot of times people have an affair. You know, maybe a guy feels like he's unhappiness marriage. So then he cheats on his wife so that she divorced. Yeah. But but but then there's more to it. So intimacy disorder, like, what does that mean?

Dr. Rob Weiss  2:57  
Well, I think that cheating. And I've written some books about this. So by the way, I mentioned I wrote a book called out of the doghouse, a relationship saving guide for men caught cheating, I have to remember the title. And the reason I did that, just to say it is that I've never met a man yet, who actually understands what a woman goes through when she's betrayed. And so therefore, we don't know how to fix the problem. And so I wrote a book about telling Man, look, you want to be with this woman? Here's what you have to do. But um, so the reason I said that is because I can differentiate cheating from compulsive or sexual addiction. To me, cheating is immaturity. You know, I don't think of my spouse, I can go off in the world and they go out of my mind. I'm not keeping my relationship as a focus. And to me that is immature, it's thinking myself first and nothing of the couple. But compulsive sexual behavior is something that happens over and over and over again, it usually precedes a relationship. It's something that a guy or a girl will walk into a relationship and say, Actually, I've probably done this since I was 14. And, and these patterns of behavior, yes, they're sexual in nature. But what they really are is a substitute for connection. The people I work with the sex and porn addicts, they're broken into pieces. And there's one piece that is love and family and home and connection. And then there's another piece that sex intensity disappearing, keeping secrets, all of that stuff, and they don't match up. So my sexual life inside of an intimate relationship is often minimized or doesn't happen, or is very occasional, but I'm having sex all the time over here. But I'm not really that intimate or meaningful in my relationships over there or porn certainly isn't. But all my love and family is over here. But I'm not fully present because I'm acting out sexually. So it's really about living a double life like every addict does. But it's also the underlying issue is the fear of deeply committing to one person and being vulnerable to them without having control without well control. was a big piece without worrying about the going to hurt me. So I keep my distance with family and I get intense with people, I don't know, more or less. And that kind of works like that.

The Recovering CEO  5:10  
Wow. I mean, that's, yeah, that's fascinating, you know, because so for example, you know, I've been married 20 Coming up on 23 years. I love my wife, you know, but as you know, and some of the things you mentioned to like, started when you're 14 years old, you know, it's I think about as a kid Lina learning about masturbation right and, and trying it. And even when I first got sober from drugs and alcohol, I always say at meetings that while masturbation and ice cream got me through, you know, the first few months, because I was just so sick, you know, and are sleeping, I slept all the time, because what else could I do? You know, but then as you go forward in life, and obviously, relationships change, you know, once we have two daughters, once we have two kids, then there's less sex, you don't it just changes and evolves. And then, you know, and I do understand what you're saying about. I don't know, just the intimacy, and even my wife says, you know, while we're not always intimate, like, and for guys, I feel like kind of a dumb jock sometimes, like, What do you mean, we're not intimate? Like, you know, and it's not sex, it's connection. But guys don't understand that. I don't understand that. Can you explain? Like I can. Yeah,

Dr. Rob Weiss  6:18  
I can actually define intimacy. Can I tell you a little story? Please, this is his silly little story. But I went to see a doctor about I had a problem with one of my fingers through it, like, wasn't working, right? Because I'm getting older. And this Medaka particular doctor knew what I did for a living, I work with human sexuality. I work with intimacy. And of course, I work with a trail and all that. And he said to me, you know, I'm 60 years old. And do you mind if I ask a question? And I knew it was about my area of work was fine. And he said, My worst wife's a lot younger. And I'm not sure I can keep up with her. And I worry that maybe I won't be able to satisfy her, and what are your thoughts. And I immediately thought, I want this guy as a friend, because what he was doing was being intimate with me. Because by disclosing something personal and being open, he drew me toward him. In the way he I thought, Oh, wow, I want to help I want to support because he was opening yourself up to me and making me vulnerable, which means I stepped forward. Therefore, we were more intimate with each other. I don't want to have sex with him. He don't want to sex with me. But he opened himself up in a way that I could have hurt him. I could have said, you know, for the 60 year old man, you know, whatever I could have said, but most of us tend to move toward people. And this is one of the problems that I see, especially with sex and love addicts, is that the spouses, our spouses, don't usually say that the biggest issue is the sex. It is they hate being cheated on. They're not happy. But when I read what they say, and I listen to them, they say you don't talk to me. You don't engage with me, you're not listening to me, you don't meet my needs, you don't. And what they're really saying is you don't open up to me, and I can't get in. And that is the real fear is yes, the sex is a version of it. But it's more like I have to keep you at a certain distance. Because I could get hurt based on early experiences. So I have to control our relationship by not letting you in, so you can't hurt me. And if you don't let people in emotionally, then you're not being intimate. So intimacy is defined by literally letting someone in so there is sexual intimacy. But even that is vulnerable with someone you love. There's an opening up and they could hurt you. With a stranger. I'm not intimate. I don't care what they think. And if I don't like how that stranger went, or they rejected me, I'd go on another one. So it's the people I'm closest to, that I struggle letting into my heart and my soul, and that is what creates intimacy. Intimacy is not sexual intimacy. Sex is the endpoint when you love someone of intimacy.

The Recovering CEO  8:50  
Okay. Does that help? Yes, yes, it does. Dr. Rob, I appreciate that. You know, and also I know in some of your research, and when they talk about sex addiction, they often say there's often some sort of trauma from a young age. I think back, you know, I was adopted, right, so I was adopted, and back then they sent us to a foster family for six months to kind of hang out, and then you're actually adopted by your parents. So you know, in that first year, I really lacked a lot of connection, you know, from leaving my birth mom and then leaving the foster family. And I feel like that may have caused some trauma is could that be an example of trauma? And does trauma often cause some sort of intimacy or trust issues when you get older?

Dr. Rob Weiss  9:34  
Well, the first thing I want to say is that people who have addictions often want to blame it on something. So they want to say to their wife, well, I didn't mean to cheat on you. But you know, I had a lot of trauma when I was a kid. And I think what's important to say is, yes, dysfunctional intimacy and adult life is informed by early trauma. I learned how to relate how to connect how to disconnect it very early in life. You know that That's absolutely true. So do the clients I have who have sex and love and relationship and porn addiction problems, do they have early trauma? Almost everyone. But they can't take the trauma and put that as the source of their problems in the sense that I'm an adult, I have to take responsibility for my adult behavior. So I can say, and I think it's absolutely true that for most of us trauma began a trauma being hit, being neglected, being abandoned as you experienced these deep, enduring feelings that ultimately, if I get deeply intimate with someone, they're going to let me down, they're going to hurt me. This is how I learned to be non intimate, because I learned early in life, that being intimate meaning letting down my guard, asking for help, being vulnerable means I'm going to be not responded to, or I'm going to get a Why don't you go to your room and think about in other words, I'm not going to get what I need. And what we learned from that is, Oh, I get it, I have to take care of myself. Not anyone's going to be there for me, and how do addicts take care of themselves? They drink they use they act out because the alternative is to make yourself vulnerable. And that's terrifying. Because when we were kids, we made ourselves vulnerable, or we just were vulnerable. We were hurt. And you remember things you learned your lessons about relationships early on. So yes, trauma is the initiating experience that leads us to struggle with addictions, absolutely all addictions. And that doesn't, that can't be an excuse. It can't be, oh, well, I have trauma. So it has to be more, I have to take responsibility for my sobriety. And then when I'm sober, unstable, I need to look back and see how I got here.

The Recovering CEO  11:42  
Okay, so basically, you're saying, I can't blame anything on the trauma? First, the key is to get sober. And then you work on dealing with the trauma and the cause the root causes, like how do I get rid of those feelings?

Dr. Rob Weiss  11:55  
Well, trauma is a trauma in adult life is a disorder, a disease of disconnection. You know, based on what I talked about, you know, as a healthy person, I have a bad day, I hopefully call a friend go for a walk the dog, hopefully not, you know, I take care of myself. And, and it's essential that I reach out to other people, that people are our support or guide our foundation. Addicts don't believe that other people will be there for them, support them, nurture them, they are learned that early in life. So if I'm on my own, the result of the trauma is I'm going to act out. But when we go into recovery, it's anti disconnection. So I have to go to meetings. So I have to be engaging with other people, I have to get a sponsor, I have to start relying on people, I go to therapy, and I'm giving that person my trust. So I believe it's through the practice of recovery, that I begin to recover from the trauma. I don't necessarily, so I think people think well, if I just remember everything, if I just have every single memory of anything that ever happened to me this dramatic that I'm going to get better. And that's just not true, I could show you a motion picture of your life, and you can see every moment and you would still drink. So the purpose is I got to stop you from drinking or stop you from sexual acting out. And when you're stable, and you have those relationships that you can turn to when you're hurting, sober, then we can go back and look what happened to you. Because if you have the resources to get through it, nobody were written. The word is nobody heals trauma, nobody resolves trauma, there are many therapists who want to say, I don't believe that's true. If I cut my arm, I'm gonna have a scar the rest of my life, my brain has issues because of how I was grown. But can I learn how to manage it, how to negotiate it, how to build a relationship with it. So don't just act it out. That's what I can do in trauma work, and I can turn down the intensity of it. But I don't think you can address trauma until he gets sober because you're creating trauma all the way along, you're ruining your life. I don't come to therapy and talked about trauma. If I my spouse is so furious that I cheated. I'm going to talk about that. And so until you're sober, you can't really get to those underlying things. But one more way of looking at it. I think the addiction is the iceberg. You know, it's the thing at the top of the water, it's the symptom. Addiction is a symptom of underlying issues, but you have to deal with a symptom before you can get to the things that underlie it.

The Recovering CEO  14:17  
Okay, all right. So, you know, as a drug, drug addict, alcohol, you know, I understand what drugs did to me, you know, you drink you get high, you get drunk, it's like endorphins. Is it similar to the high you would get from a sex addiction or a, you know, relationship with someone outside of marriage is Are there similar chemical reactions?

Dr. Rob Weiss  14:42  
So there are two different kinds of addictions, there's substance addictions, which is drinking using all of that. And then there's something called we call process addictions. So process addictions are things or behaviors, gambling, gaming, porn, sexual acting out, eating for Some people spending all of that stuff is not necessarily putting something into your body like a chemical, but the rush and the excitement and the intensity of being singularly focused on getting to that casino or looking at that porn. That is part of the process of the addiction. So I'm already lost when I'm starting to think about it. And then I'm getting the money for it. And then I'm going toward it, and then I'm in it. All of that is the addictive process, because it's like a step by step Oh, I can't wait to do this. And oh, I can't wait to do that. And, and anyone who knows this, your heart is pounding. Your adrenaline is going you are literally not focused on anything except going and doing what you want to do. And so in that sense, yes, it is mood altering, it becomes an obsession. It's things that you really can't stop doing without help or direction. And you see all these consequences you're having, but you keep doing it. It's compulsive. So that really defines substance addictions, but also process addiction. You know, and it's pretty easy. If you have a porn addiction with masturbation. It's kind of like alcohol, just don't look at porn or masturbate for 30 days, see what happens? You know, if it's a breeze, it's no problem, you probably don't have a problem. You know, if you can't stay away from it, something to look at.

The Recovering CEO  16:18  
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If you're not sure if you're an addict, go try some more controlled drinking or controlled masturbation. No, but speaking of you're talking about this digital interventions, you know, it really these young kids coming up. And that's one thing I worry about. Dr. Rob, is these young people coming into the workforce? A lot of them are gaming addicts, you know, a lot of them have gambling apps on their phone, they have porn on their phone, they have everything, you know, they've grown up in this Wi Fi generation, and I know you have a TV show coming up that's going to kind of talk about some of these digital interventions like, is that a problem? Do we need to look at that and address that with this new generation?

Dr. Rob Weiss  16:52  
Well, I'm writing things down because i for i forget things. But um, let me let me answer that question first. I remember when I was young, and there were new drugs on the market, there was marijuana that was easily accessible, there was acid, there was heroin out there for street consumption, as opposed to you know, people. Everyone from my parents generation said, Oh, my God, these kids are doing casual drugs, they're all gonna end up as drug addicts. That's not true. Really, a small percentage of us ran with those addictions. Everyone else said you that was a fun teen or young adult experience. But I'm done. Because they're healthy, and their brains aren't broken, and they don't have that kind of trauma. So I don't really worry about a new generation with a new generation of potential addictions, because it's only going to be some of us who get hooked. It's only going to be some of us who are broken. And in fact, I've been to a lot of fancy dancy conferences where we talk about all these issues among you know, younger folks and adults as well. I can tell you, we don't worry about the Healthy People, we don't sit around and say, Oh, my God, everyone's going to we worry about the kid who was abused about the kid who was neglected about the kid who was abandoned, and how is he or she going to handle these devices that are, let's face it, they're intense, they're intense. They're something you can do on your own. And nobody knows. I mean, it has all the elements that could lead to addiction. But so do a lot of drugs that some of us did in childhood, that didn't turn out to be addictions. So it really is about the person, not necessarily the stimulation, everybody's going to find their way to addiction, if that's what their stuff is.

The Recovering CEO  18:29  
Does that make sense? Yeah. Interesting. So you're saying the rates of addiction may not be dramatically different. It's they're not,

Dr. Rob Weiss  18:34  
it's just people are switching. In fact, I would suggest to you that if, if our century, the 20th century was one defined by substance addiction, I really think that 21st is going to be defined by digital addiction. And so and so, a&e Arts and Entertainment Television Network that did the show called intervention, is now doing a show called Digital intervention. And they've come to professionals like me, I'm one of the hosts for a couple of shows, or other people in gambling or gaming my areas porn in this case, and they're asking us to intervene on young people who are struggling with these issues. And to be honest, in my world is not that different than an intervention on drugs and alcohol. But when your problem is sex, the issues are so much more personal. There's so much more intimate, there's they're very different. And you probably know that nobody goes into an AAA meeting and talks about masturbation, they would probably people would look at them pretty funny. So you need those places to go those environments, that information that really specifically belongs with what you're struggling with. And that's what we're doing on digital addiction. We are beginning to look at these other things that people don't talk about. And you know, as well as I do, the digital addictions are so much easier to hide. Because nobody knows when I'm sitting my phone in front of me that I'm gambling like a crazy person. I can just say I'm reading a book. And when you were drunk back in the day, people knew pretty sure

The Recovering CEO  20:00  
That's so true. That's so so true. You know, I listened to a lot of I'm a I'm a sports fan. And I do think I have a slight sports addiction because you know, I'm very into Michigan State football and basketball. You know, this my college.

Dr. Rob Weiss  20:14  
Well that sounds like fun,

The Recovering CEO  20:18  
yeah, it is fun. It is fun. But people on these podcasts, they're like, oh, yeah, we're betting on this game. We're betting on that game. And, you know, there's so many things that people talk about it there that seem normal. And I guess for me, as someone who has an addictive personality, there's just certain things I can't do. You know, I realized I can't do that. And so you know, I really kind of need to learn. I always talk about David Carradine, how he has to walk on the rice paper without leaving a mark. You know, from that old kung fu TV show?

Dr. Rob Weiss  20:46  
That's before most people's time, but I'm on line with you. I saw the TV show.

The Recovering CEO  20:52  
Yeah, but uh, well, I'm not sure what my point is. But the point is, I realize there's just some things I can't do.

Dr. Rob Weiss  20:58  
No, no, actually, I heard what you said. And I think there's a really important distinction about what you said is that use the word normal. And I don't use that word, I use the word healthy. You know, I don't know what's normal for everyone around sex. I don't know what's normal around people when they drink. But I do know what's healthy. I do know what supporting your life. And I think that's another way to look at addiction, you know, when you and I'm not an alcoholic. So if I sit down at a table, I have half a glass of wine, I'm done, I start to get a headache, you know, I don't want to go any further. For me, that's pretty healthy. It relaxes me, it's part of the social interaction I might share to the New Years. But that's really all I'm interested in. But if you're an alcoholic, you're not drinking for to be social, or to engage with other people or to celebrate your drinking to escape. Your motivation is completely different. So my motivation to drink is pretty healthy. Your motivation drinking alcoholic is not healthy, it is destroying your life. And I think that's a great way to think of addiction because we do the same things. You know, some of us Gamble's some of us shop of some, you know, but it's when it becomes unhealthy. And it starts to affect your life, in that you're not functioning as well. You know, people say what defines addiction? Well, my job isn't going as well as it should, my relationship isn't going as well as should. I've been having problems in the world. But you know, I think functionality is a great way to think about addiction, because it's the consequences that bring people in for health.

The Recovering CEO  22:22  
Yeah, I love that, you know, because with this podcast, we want to raise awareness. So people might, they may not think they have an addiction to go to like, a 12 step meeting. But maybe they realize, you know, they're not hitting their, their work goals, you know, or they're struggling at their home relationships. And then they realize, you know, like, I never thought drugs was a problem at all, or I never thought sex was the problem or, you know, but then see, so talk a little bit more about some of those signs, where you realize, you know, what, maybe this is hurting me, like, how do people come to you is it usually when they get in trouble, like with their wife, or their the law or something, or

Dr. Rob Weiss  22:59  
if you go to enough 12 step meetings or work in the addiction world, you know, this, nobody comes in without an invitation. And what I mean by that is, human beings don't want to change in particular, what changes us and gets us off the die most often is either love or pain. And I would say 95% of I probably seen 800 to 1000 men and many women who struggle with sex and porn addiction, and I can tell you, 99% of them came in, because my wife said she was going to leave me, my husband is going to leave, I'm going to lose my job, they found out, you know, I got an arrest for St. John's and with with a, with an arrest record, I'm gonna have to stop teaching, you know, or whatever that is. So people do not come in. Look, if my and you know, the so well, if my addictions continue to work for me, and it allows me to escape, but I'm still getting away with it. And it's not, I'm not going to stop, because it's working for me. But when the world starts crashing down around me, and it becomes really clear that this is the problem, I can't, I can no longer say I can handle this, I can say it's kicking my butt, as you say. And to me, a great example of that would be the 23 year old who's in college, and they're not doing well. And they don't understand why they're not doing well. Well, they're not doing well, because they're spending three or four hours a night looking at porn, you know, and then there's and then there's teachers like, Well, why aren't you getting this work done, and they don't fully understand that that is taking them away to such a degree that they're not able to accomplish, what they went there to accomplish. And so there's an example where the porn is destroying their ability to graduate college or be successful. But I'll say most of the people I see in our treatment center are people who came in because their spouse said, I'm not going to take this anymore. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. And if you continue to do this, you're going to lose me and the kids, or whatever that is.

The Recovering CEO  24:49  
Yep, yep, the ultimatum. You know, it's interesting, Dr. Rob, because when you just talked about the person in college looking at porn all night, I could see that you know, for me because I I was dealing with active alcoholism in college took me six years to graduate. I carried a 1.5 GPA for two years. I mean, I was just a bad college student because I never went to class. I had shame your head in the morning. Yeah, I was drunk all the time. But I could see if I had wireless internet. And if I had a computer, like the technology now, I could see how porn would have done the same thing.

Dr. Rob Weiss  25:22  
Well, I do want to say something about digital addiction, because it is different in this way. Accessing porn, for example, back in pre internet days, and then I had to go get in my car, get on a bicycle and go to some icky place and hope nobody saw me and spend a bunch of money to buy something or rent something. And half the time was a video, I had to return it. You know, what if I want to look at porn now I just say, you know, hey, phone, show me some porn. And there it is. So there's the, the accessibility of it. And then there's the anonymity of it, which is nobody knows what I'm looking at, at least in my I think nobody knows what. And then there's the affordability of it because it's free, basically. So when you don't have to pay for something, it's immediately available, and no one around you knows that you're doing it. That's going to be a lot more potential for addiction than something that people can see. Or you have to run away from or that you can't afford.

The Recovering CEO  26:16  
Yep, so I have to ask popular television show on HBO. Max, have you watched euphoria at all?

Dr. Rob Weiss  26:23  
I've seen a little bit of it. I tried it. So let me say this, I really try to avoid shows that remind me of work. You know, so someone says, Oh, my God, this is great. And they think I want to see it. Right? This is great show on alcoholism. I'm like, Can I watch Downton Abbey? You know, it's just kind of watch a game, you know? So I have to say, No, I haven't. But please continue.

The Recovering CEO  26:43  
Well, well, I find that interesting. And well, the show is addiction. I mean, it's just addiction served up on a silver platter. And it's really scary show but I could see why you wouldn't want to watch it because you deal with that every day at work. So

Dr. Rob Weiss  26:59  
yeah, I don't want to see people struggling unless they're doing it with music or on the field.

The Recovering CEO  27:06  
Yep. Yes. So So tell me Dr. Rob, because also sugar addiction. I know, this isn't your necessarily specialty. But I you know, I struggle with that. And, you know, one doughnut leads to two donuts leads to Sunday. I mean, I and I can't stop. And it's very similar. It's progressive, and it's, it's a binge thing. Is sugar similar as far as chemical changes, you know, with some of the sex addiction stuff and the pornography or the?

Dr. Rob Weiss  27:32  
Well, I don't think it's unusual for people with alcohol issues to also have issues with sugar. Because what is alcohol? You know, it's 70%, carbohydrates and sugar. So, you know, you're used to using that as a means of escape. Sugar provides, I know, if I eat enough of it, I am spaced out I am. You know, I'm not really my body. And I feel bad. You know, I, I guess part of what I want to say is if I eat that sugar, and I, that gives me something to feel bad about. Like, I don't have to hate myself for who I am, I can hate myself for eating that sugar. And so in a way, it's like I have more control over how I feel if I can find something out there that makes me unhappy with myself. So I think there's a psychological component to it. There's also a lot of hoarding and hiding, and you know, all that kind of stuff. But I gotta tell you, I'm with you, because I am trying to stay at a reasonable weight rate. And I figure half my day is eating healthy, and the other half is dessert. I don't think we're alone in that. But it's the constant craving and struggle that is different. And then we're back to the question what is healthy? You know, how much is a piece of cake healthy? Not every day is a whole cake healthy? Not at all, you know, it's a manager, it's a matter of what reflects health and functionality. And that does vary from person to person. You know, when you're a little kid you eat a lot of sugar, a lot of cookies and all that if I like that today, I'd be a little larger. So it changes with time as well.

The Recovering CEO  29:01  
Yeah, you know, you know, some people like you think of like, British royalty or whatnot, like they just look perfect, and the dress perfect. And you're like, how do they do that? Like, what is the secret to these people that and then I think moderation, right? And it's saying no to things and having discipline. And I know that we can't judge other people's outsides, you know, by our insides as they say. But I do think the key is that peaceful moderation the not indulging in any one thing too much where it becomes a problem. And as someone who deals with addiction, how in the heck is that possible? Is just take practice. I mean, how

Dr. Rob Weiss  29:44  
I'm writing something down, so I remember it. Actually, I'll just say it. A dear colleague of mine said once that a life lived in recovery without addiction should be just one notch above boring. That life is Good sometimes and not so good other times, but it's not that constant roller coaster of highs and lows that addicts run through. So I think like you said, having a reasonably stable life, stuff happens, people die. You know, it's tough, but I don't run away. And the reason I don't run away is because I have other people in my life you asked, what is really the answer? And the answer is connection. You know, as Brene, Brown asked, Johanna Hari is the all these people who really understand that the disease is is a disease of disconnection and isolation. And that healthy people turn to other people for support and addicts turn to themselves and say, How can I fix this on my own? So if I may give an example? Yes, please. So let I have dogs, and sadly, one of them passed away a year ago, not a big deal. At the moment, it was that I could have sat at home and said, Wow, God, I lost my dog, I feel terrible, I feel awful, I need a drink. Or they'll make me feel better. Or I could go on Facebook, let's say and say, here's a picture of my dog and my dog died. And it's so sad. And then people are gonna come in, they're gonna say, Oh, I knew you. I knew you with your dog. And the Gosh, that sad and look at this picture. Maybe they have a picture of me and my dog. Does the sadness Go away of the loss of my dog? Because all these people are saying this stuff? No. But I'm grounded. I'm not alone. I'm connected in the pain that I have. And it makes it much more easy to tolerate addicts avoid intimacy, we avoid connection, we turn to our own resources, addictive behavior, to feel better. And what we learn in recovery is we have to turn to people and we have to build a community. Someone asked me last night because I do a weekly q&a online. You know, how do you know if someone's in recovery? You know, is there a way to say or that they're really doing? Well? And my answer is, yeah, because they're so connected to other people that they're getting support from. I'm a sex addict. I'm a porn addict. I am not acting out presently. I haven't for a long time. But I know that if I didn't have people to call to reach out to, it's not like the disease goes away, I am sure there are times when you want to create that sugar, you want to you know, I used to be alone with that struggle on my own. And you know what I'm going to lose every time. Because the addiction is so powerful, the desire the intensity that neurochemicals, but when I talk to somebody, they say, Hey, I'm having a really hard day, and I just want to be alone. And they say, can we have a cup of coffee, it doesn't take away the hard day, but it builds that connection. And then I don't have to go fix it on my own. I am soothed, not relieved, but soothed by those connections. Addicts don't seek connection. They seek substances and behaviors, recovering people and people who are healthy, seek relationships to make themselves feel better.

The Recovering CEO  32:47  
Love it. Yeah, I love that, as you know, as, as I've always heard, is that our addiction, or my addiction wants to isolate me and kill me. Right? And every, every choice I make is either going towards a drink or away from a drink. You know, and it talks about in the 12 steps, the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Speaking of spiritual, like, how do you how do you personally deal with?

Dr. Rob Weiss  33:11  
Well, I want to say something before? Yes, please, I think it'll be really important, which is, how do you define sobriety, with sexuality, or with food. And I think that's always an important thing to say. Because if I'm dealing with alcohol and drugs, it's not easy or simple, but it's simple to define No mood altering substances, period, you know, that's the end. So I can live my life and enjoy my life without a new any more mood altering substances. It might not be as exciting or intense as it was, but I'm not going to have all those problems. I can live my life without ever gambling again, for sure. But food and sexuality are healthy and we don't want to disengage certainly can't disengage from eating. And I think it's unhealthy to avoid sexuality. In fact, I would say that completely avoiding sex is like having too much too much or too little or both problems. So what sobriety is, is really in sexuality is really setting a set of behaviors that I know are healthy for me, and a set of behaviors that are not. So I know, for example, that paying for sex is not good for me, I know that looking at porn is not good for me, by the way, it may be okay for someone else, because these aren't moral judgments. It's just when I look at porn, I don't graduate school. So I make a list of those behaviors that I understand are bringing me down could be something that's illegal, like hiring sex workers, it could be having multiple affairs and I've lost many relationships. I don't want to do those things anymore. So I put make a list, sort of the minus list. These are the things that are not okay for me to do. And if I do do them, I already know they're gonna cause problems. And then I go over the other side and the plus list Well, what can I do? Well, single people might have a whole set of things that are acceptable for them relationship and sexually. Someone who's married is probably going to have a whole different set, but they're are options for what is healthy for me, and the clear dividing line between that and what is not. So in a sex addiction or a food addiction, if I crossed that line, if I hire that sex worker, if I go to that buffet and I have seven servings, I have crossed that line into, into not being so rare to slip or relapse. It's not that I am not eating or being sexual, but but if I'm in recovery, I'm not doing things that I already know, and have committed to as being a problem. And I wanted to find that because people say, Well, do you just not have sex anymore? It's like, well, no, you have it in a healthy way. And you have to figure out what that is, with the help of people like me. And with the 12 step programs.

The Recovering CEO  35:42  
No, thank you for defining that. I think defining sobriety is really important and having those clear guidelines, because otherwise, it is kind of fuzzy, you know, it's an addicts

Dr. Rob Weiss  35:52  
like fuzzy. And I can convince someone, pretty much of anything, I want to convince them of, you know, Oh, this isn't so bad. It's not really going to cause a problem. But if it's in black and white, and I've written it down, and I am accountable to someone that I have, I can't just change the list of bad things. Unless I've talked to them, I'm much more likely to change my behavior. And I do think that one of the strongest keys to recovery of any addiction is accountability. Alone, I can make my own decisions, I can do whatever the FBI want. And I'm not worried about the consequences. When I have to call you someone I know, well, who understands my issues. And I have to say, you know, I'm thinking about going and doing this, what do you think, then I am going to be presented with a different way of looking at where I'm at. And I can make different choices. Again, connection people to lean on. People who can advise me, my own advice is grab snacks, a lot of people have, you know, gamble and have a bunch of drinks, and I'll be better. That's my own best self advice. doesn't work very well. So you're gonna say that spirituality? Tell me about?

The Recovering CEO  36:54  
Yeah, well, you know, I just, I listened, I listened to your podcast, Dr. Rob, I listened to Glenn and Doyle's podcast, we can do hard things. And I don't know if you ever listened to her. But she recently interviewed the woman who wrote Eat, Pray Love. Yeah, who talked who talked about how she's actually a member of SLA, and, you know, she talked about her spiritual practice and how her sponsor told her that it's essential to truly define your own higher power, because that's the only way you're gonna listen to it and believing it is if you define it as the way you really want it to be, you know, like I was raised Catholic with a pretty strict picture of what God is, right? So in recovery, or 12 step recovery, they suggest to have a Higher Power of your understanding. And, and I'm just curious of your opinion on this, because in AAA, you know, which is the foundation of all 12 steps, they say that the foundation of this program is really to help you find God, which is a big statement. You know, I look at that as living in the light, or not living alone, you know, finding God is really almost in finding the God within, you know, connecting to my true self, or, I don't know, I'm just curious how you how you see that and how you work to do that, if

Dr. Rob Weiss  38:09  
you do? Well, I do think that there are people have, who had very difficult experiences with their religion early in life, that in some ways could have been traumatic, you know, as a part of their trauma. So not everyone, but when you say to someone, you need to return to some spirituality and understand what your higher power is, I think a lot of people curl up and want to run the other way, because they think it's it means religion, or they think it means a certain kind of practice that they have to do, or else they're bad, you know, those kinds of things. And I agree with you, I think that we have to find our The point is, is to say, I am not alone, there is something bigger than me, that is going on, and that and that I'm a part of it. And this is also that part of connection. So being you know, they say in the trust of homes, a lot about surrender a lot about letting go, Well, I don't trust myself surrendering anybody. I knew what that was like as a kid, and I ain't doing it again. But this idea that I can have faith that I can trust, that I can believe that if I let go have some of my fears, anxieties that good things will happen. Those are spiritual values. Now, I have to tell you, I don't believe in big G God, I don't think there's anybody out there with an old with a beard, and it's, you know, staff directing traffic. I don't think that prayer is going to be heard. You know, for me, that's just not I don't believe in that outside thing. It's just how it but do I believe in a higher power? Absolutely. And I can tell you what it is. When I stand in a 12 step meeting, or I go to group therapy, or I have lunch with someone I love, and I feel that connection between us. That's where God lives for me. It lives in if you ever seen Michael, you know Michelangelo's ceiling. I think God is touching somebody. I don't know you guys, the angel Gabriel or something. And these two fingers are pointing toward each other. One of them is A finger of God and one of those fingers of a person. And to me that space in between. That's where God is where you and I are. And I know this because I got to trust at meetings with deeply hurt and troubled people. And somehow with the connections there and the support there, and the ability to trust others, they become spiritual people. And it has nothing to do with going to any particular religion, it has to do with a belief that alone, I'm not going to do well. And in some kind of connection, I will, again, I'm going to come back to every other time that addiction is every time, addiction is a disease of isolation and disconnection. It's a fear of leaning into and on other people that I learned early in life. And the more I learn to trust and lean into people and, and belief systems that work for me, the less likely it is that I'm going to get myself into trouble. And I absolutely believe that by myself, I'm in serious trouble. But in connection to other people, that's regardless, that's mine, that's mine, yours may be completely different. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with returning to the religion of your of your early origins. But it has to be integrated in not just a rule based way duelists do that. It has to come from inside, and that that's a different journey than growing up in a religion, I think.

The Recovering CEO  41:18  
Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that, you know, and, you know, when they talk about addiction, and for me, I know myself and I started going against some of my morals and values, or when I started acting in a way that didn't feel good. You could feel it right in here, you know, and I kind of feel like that's, in some ways, it was, you know, like, I knew that I was not meant to live alone in a locked apartment with a shotgun, looking out the window. And just, there was so useless, like, there was so against what maybe I was had the potential to be,

Dr. Rob Weiss  41:50  
right. On some level, it's safe.

The Recovering CEO  41:54  
Yeah, but But I realized it was wrong, you know, and each time I get stuck in that, you know, when I do something that goes against my morals, I can feel it in here. And I think that's, in many ways, you know, for lack of a better way to say it. I don't know. God, you know, or whatnot, or, but they talk about his own enlightened self interest must tell him that he has to change, you know, my own enlightened self interest had to tell me that, Derek, this is wrong, you know, I can't do this, it feels bad. If, you know, if my wife knew about it, it would be bad. If my parents knew about it, I would be ashamed. That's a really good sign. You know, if the police caught me, they would arrest me. You know, all those things are really good, like, signs to the addict to maybe change?

Dr. Rob Weiss  42:38  
Well, I often say to people is sort of kind of silly. But if someone you love and trust, who knows nothing about your addiction, we're sitting on your shoulder, would you do this? Would you do that? In other words, if you had a different way of being observed, and someone was around, would you still be doing this? Because addicts tend to, we want to hide, we want to isolate, we don't want people to know what we're doing. And so yes, breathing in the light of other people's eyes, I think is a wonderful way to think about recovery. And someone who's spiritual might say that I'm never alone, that I'm always guided, then I'm always connected, you know, and that also is an important way of staying a feeling like a part of. So yeah, I think spirituality is very important. But it really has to the belief that there that I do not have the answers, and that I need to reach out and get them wherever I can.

The Recovering CEO  43:27  
So can you talk a little bit about your website, the section relationship? healing.com. I know you have some volunteer therapists out there. Sure about that?

Dr. Rob Weiss  43:35  
Well, first, I do want to say if you don't mind that I run and I've created a treatment center. And this is my fifth, I think so I'm an old man. I'm 61. I've been doing this work since I was 30. So I've created treatment centers for sex addiction. In Tennessee, and Singapore in Lausanne, like all over the world, really. I've worked for the military, because most therapists don't know how to talk about masturbation no less work with it. So I've had a lot of opportunities. And one of the words that is most important to me, and our work is the word integrity. And it's exactly what you talked about. It's if I'm with my spouse, there's nothing that they don't know about me. If I'm at work, and someone said, I don't want anyone to see me in the shower in the morning. But if I said, Oh, I took a shower this morning, they wouldn't say you did what? In other words, wherever I go in life, I don't have anything to hide. I have boundaries. I don't want everyone to know every single thing. But if they did, I wouldn't feel like I was a bad person and hiding things. So integrity, which is by the way, integrity is the taking of separate parts disintegration, and putting them into one. And if you're compartmentalised or you're acting out and you have two or three different lives, you're not integrated. So I named our treatment programs seeking integrity because I think that is the goal is to at all times, to the best of my ability, be integrated, have integrity, not be split into pieces. So seeking integrity. dot com. That's our website I treat. We treat men who have sex addiction porn addiction, we treat men who have combined drug and sex problems, which is a whole other subject because people who drink and use during being sexual and people who are sexual than have to drink and use where these addictions kind of tie together. It's really fascinating to me to find out what's underneath. Because if I drink in order to enjoy sex, that's another thing if I used to tolerate sex, that's another thing. So you know, anyway, I'm very interested in the combination. But seeking integrity aside, there is a website we have called sex and relationship healing.com. And what's on sex and relationship healing dot coms, I got about 20 therapists to volunteer their time. And we do 19 groups a week that are absolutely free for anyone who anonymously wants to drop in, we sell nothing, we all we do is give you a space that is moderated to talk about sex, to talk about porn to talk about being betrayed, to talk about drugs and sex. Not everyone feels comfortable in a 12 step program. So people want to kind of someone to observe and keep it safe, if you will. And as I said, a lot of people may never make it to therapy. So we've created all these spaces, and videos and podcasts and all of this stuff that's completely free. So that in my mind, people can start this journey. And you and I were talking earlier, you know, so many people, so many more people than you and I know are See, never get to a therapist, they can't afford it. They don't have insurance, they got three jobs. So many people never get to a 12 step meeting for many similar reasons. But they can drop in online, and they can learn something and they can connect with people and they can watch a video or they can listen to a podcast. Thank goodness, we live in a world where you and I can sit here and offer healing to people. And you know, I don't think we've gone very far. If I didn't go very far today, except with my living room to my dining room, you know, but I can help people. And maybe there's one more thing I want to say it makes me kind of tearful.

Dr. Rob Weiss  47:02  
When I started doing a podcast, sex, love and addiction, you know, I live in the States, I thought, okay, you know, this is great people in the US podcasts are kind of a thing. What I didn't realize is that podcasts play in Japan, they play in Thailand, they in China, they play in Europe, they play all in South Africa, they play all over the world. And that's kind of what makes me tearful is I'll get a note from somebody, you know who's in Indonesia, or, or they're in Africa. And they say, you know, I never understood what was wrong with me. I always thought it was a bad person. And I listened to this and I realized, Oh, I actually have a problem, and I can work on it, and I can make it better. And I don't know about you, Derek. But for me, the greatest gift in all of this is to be able to give stuff to people who I will never meet. When I get a note from someone who says, I read your book, I heard your podcast, and I learned things and I don't think about that person, and I have a path. That's everything to me, because they have something that that I have given them an eye, it's like paying it forward. You know, I was given a gift with my recovery. And now I give it to give it to people that I don't even know as you do right here. By the way, I want to say something about CEOs, if you don't mind. Yeah. So in sex addiction treatment, the number one professional that I see is lawyers, and more than any, and I think there's lots of reasons for that people who choose a very intellectual career, people are in their heads all the time, people working 60 or 70 hours a week, don't a lot of time for self care and self nurturing. Doctors come in closely after that, CEOs and then clergy all fall into the professional line. And then you get you know, everybody else. People think about sex or drinking and they think about that person in the street. Or that person who you know, is on social services and doesn't have any resources and is leaving their home. I work with extremely high functioning people who are doing great and making lots of money and but they're destroying their personal lives, or they don't have a personal life or they are, you know, so self hating about their sexual behavior that they that they hate themselves all the time. So it I don't think being functional and looking great in the world is rules out that your addiction is deeply troubling. And I know some CEOs talk about humility. I have several friends who are CEOs of major addiction organizations who were drinking while they were running them, or they were looking at porn every day or going to strip clubs. And for those people, it's so difficult, of course, because they're the ones who were supposed to have the answers. It's really the wounded healers coming to get help. I think I have in a way the most admiration for because we're supposed to know better. And, you know, when I get to work with a therapist, or someone who runs a treatment center, I feel like I'm giving a gift not just to them, but for everyone that they meet or take care of. So anyway, by the way, I could talk forever in case you didn't know that.

The Recovering CEO  49:54  
You're Yeah, no, it's so interesting. I mean, it's it takes a village it takes a village How to get sober. Right. It's like, you know, I use the loan, but together, we get sober. And you know, I still appreciate what you're saying. I mean, it's very, very interesting. Actually, I got a comment on my website just a couple of days ago, from someone I don't know, who said that someone said they should listen to my podcast, you know, because they're struggling with a relationship with their wife and whatnot. And, and the guy said, what I said, really connected, you know, and you're right, felt so good. It's like, Oh, my God, you mean someone's listening to this, some person, I have no idea who they are, you know, somewhere. So that's wonderful. It's a gift, right? That's one of the gifts

Dr. Rob Weiss  50:35  
and all that to that, too. You know, when I go to meetings, when I go to therapy, they tend to be the domain of white people. For the most part, we don't see a lot of Asian people in 12 step meetings and in therapy, we don't see a lot of people of color. We don't see Native America, it's not, we don't see all kinds of people who are different than ourselves. And I think there are many reasons for that. There are reasons why people don't believe in therapy, there are reasons why people want to turn to their own community. So I think the stuff that we're giving is different than someone might reach somebody who doesn't feel comfortable in those environments. And I'm very motivated to try to help people of all cultures find their way to healing whatever way they can. It's so easy for you. And I look at our world and say this is the way it is. But it's the way it's the world we live in. And there are all kinds of other worlds of people who need help. And they don't necessarily find their answers in the ways that you and I find our answers.

The Recovering CEO  51:30  
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So again, folks, we are talking to Robert Weiss, PhD, Chief Clinical Officer of seeking integrity. And Dr. Rob, what why don't you give some closing words to the person still suffering with addiction out there any any final words of wisdom before we close up today?

Dr. Rob Weiss  51:48  
Well, I guess the first thing came to mind when you said give special words to was I was thinking about spouses and partners. Because when you are betrayed, when you're violated by someone you love who is sexually acting out, the devastation is so profound. And I have to say, especially for women, that's where I've written books about this. To love someone to commit to someone to build a home with someone. And I'm not saying that gay people don't do this. And, you know, I'm not saying any of that. I'm simply saying that women when violated by a man or a woman, there's such a deep sense of home, that has been broken. And I think it's much easier for us guys to go out in the world and put him aside, especially if we're addicts. But there's a deep resonance in the women that I treat, that you haven't just cheated on me. You've cheated our family, on our children, on our spirituality on our church, on our in laws. It's such a deep wound. And I want to say that to all the male, heterosexual sex addicts out there is that it is not just your responsibility to heal, you're responsible to your children, you're responsible to your spouse, I have lots of guys who will say, Oh, I've heard that all before all those complaints that my spouse is giving me. Don't you see how you're hurting your kids? One of the things I say to men a lot is do you think all that sexual behavior left you being a good husband? Now I haven't been very good husband, how about a good father or even a great father, I did their homework with him, I took him. But if you hurt their mother, if you hurt the parent of those children, that affects them, too. You know, so when you undermine the trust and the safety in your relationship, you're doing a lot more damage than you realize. And I know that's not going to make people recover in a second, but I want them to think about more than themselves. So yeah, my answer to any addict is, think a little bit beyond you, and try to see the unhappiness of Brene, too, that you are going to other people not as annoying or irritable. I guess I want to say one more thing. When I use the words of a spouse in treatment, and I say to a guy, here's the things your spouse says male or female, whatever. And they say, you know, I've heard all that before he or she said that to me a million times. Of course, my question is, why aren't you listening? Why aren't you listening? Because the people who love us are giving us the right messages. We would just rather use or act out and listen. So there's some parting words for you. I'm not hard to find if you put in Dr. Rob Weiss and the word sex, you will probably find me for the right reasons on the internet.

The Recovering CEO  54:16  
Yeah, Dr. Rob, so wonderful to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for all you've shared and hopefully, hopefully people enjoy this episode. So thanks everyone for listening to the recovering CEO and keep coming back and we'll see you next time.