Dennis Procopio of Man-Up Life Coaching

The Recovering CEO  0:15  
Hello and welcome to the recovering CEO podcast. My name is Derek I'm the recovering CEO. And we are here with a special guest today from man up life coaching. His name is Dennis Procopio. He established His company over a decade ago and man up life coaching was Dennis his answer to the question of that we that we all face as men, which is what is my why? Dennis is an educator and trauma survivor. He began a coaching practice for men. And using the bro coach approach which I can't wait to hear about. I love that I always use the word broke because I have teenage daughters. His coaching methodology incorporates elements of traditional therapy, instructive coaching and otherwise noticeably missing factor brotherly love. And I guess that's appropriate because you're from the city of brotherly love. Right. You're from Philly? That's right. Yeah. So how are you today? Dennis? Tell me about yourself.

Dennis Procopio  1:09  
Derek, I really appreciate you having me. I'm doing really well. And I'm excited to be here and to just chat with you and see organically what what comes out. So I I'd like to jump right on to what you said, which is that I am from Philadelphia. It is the city of brotherly love. And I'm literally wearing a shirt that says man up life coaching hashtag the bro coach approach. So I'd like to share with you what that means, right? If that's yes. Okay. So I am a trauma survivor. I'm 51 years old. I'm a Jewish Italian from the northeast, originally from Philly, graduated high school in college in New York. And during the time that I was coming up, I was coming up in a very blue collar environment. And I always sort of defined myself as billionaire mind with a blue collar grind. So even though life gave me adversity, I toughed it out. And along the way, even though I did deal with poverty, abuse, addiction, these are some of the hurdles, there always seemed to be a well placed angel in my life, some male mentor, who showed me brotherly love, which was the main motivator for me to give me the confidence to keep going, even when I felt like man, I give up. So the man up life coaching concept of brotherly love. And the idea of the broke coach approach is that as an alternative to clinical therapy in which your coach established, or your therapist establishes kind of a hierarchical relationship with you. This is a lateral relationship in which not only do you tell me your problems, I tell you, mine, and I relate to you as a fellow guy doing this work, rather than as some person who has all of the answers for you to help you solve your problems.

The Recovering CEO  3:13  
Yeah, I like that. So fellow, bro, so to speak, someone who's on an even even level with your cut with your client and with your people, and you kind of help them grow together, right? As a mentor,

Dennis Procopio  3:26  
that's the idea. Yeah, the idea is, and I want to be careful not to make you know, our time together sort of an infomercial for my business, but I can say that in the spirit of helping other people, my area of focus is man, because that's my familiar. You know, I'd never be in a gynecologist because I can't relate. I, you know, I do what I'm able to do and what I know and I know guys, because I'm a guy, and specifically I know guys who are intelligent, and consequently, over thinkers, worriers and have a tendency to be so self critical because we're performance oriented. And we're so self critical that we have a tendency to criticize ourselves for not doing as well as we believe that we should be. And to constantly run a script that is developed from years of taking people's criticisms and incorporating them and running it back. It just says, you're bad, you're bad, you're not good enough, you're not good enough. And what I've noticed is that when guys do this, and all the guys do do this, eventually we become so exhausted from this perpetual attack of judgment that we seek release by either exploding in some temperamental way, or sucking it stuffing it and stuffing and stuffing and stuffing it in until We've swallowed this bomb and this self attack becomes so unbearable that we use whatever is available to us to self medicate to sort of help us deal with this, this depression and anxiety. Does that sound familiar?

The Recovering CEO  5:15  
Yeah, exactly. And that's perfectly honest. Because as you know, the recovering SEO podcast, we're working to help people who who have addictions, you know, who might work in the business world. They could be you know, successful have a family, all these things, but addiction is waiting there to trip them up. So it's just like you said, you know, when, you know, and I was reading recently, somewhere where it said, you know, when you have to say no to something like some sort of, you know, addictive behavior, whether it's alcohol, drugs, gambling, whatever, when you have to say no to something, it's very important to know what you're saying yes to. And I think that ties into what is, you know, what is my why, what is my reason for being, which then, ideally, is so enjoyable or fulfilling that I don't have to, you know, avoid gnome and escape from everything that I'm doing. Because I enjoy it, you know, like, and I'm curious, how do you help people find their why, like, I think that's a, that's a big question that a lot of guys deal with, like, how do I even find that?

Dennis Procopio  6:13  
Well, I'll respond to what you said and say that I appreciate that your audience is an audience who deals with addiction. And I will go take that idea just a little bit further and say, every single man who I've worked with over the past, almost a decade now under this brand, has come to me because he felt stuck in his life in some way and wanted somebody to help him get unstuck. And I've been the one to help him recognize, you know, you have some addictive behaviors, not everyone who came into the city, I struggle with alcoholism, or gay occasionally, you know, do blow on the weekends, and then hate myself. Or, you know, I, you know, I'm a Christian, and I've got this secret porn habit, and it's tearing my family apart or whatever, or the gambling thing I lived in Vegas. You know, I know how gambling can be a real, real draw. Not every guy who comes to man up life coaching says, Hey, I have addictions, I often demonstrate to guys, do you realize how many things you're using in your life that you're using as prescriptions to cope throughout the course of the day? And they're, and they say, Well, what do you mean? I say, Well, what are some of your habits Well, gaming, YouTube, their social media in general? alcohol, alcohol, of course, comfort, comfort eating. So there are all of these things that people are using as addictions and to help them find your why to answer your question. The first thing I asked them is, what do you want most more than anything else? And they all say, per personal success, and I say, Well, what's at the heart of personal success? Isn't it really peace? Isn't that what you want? Don't you want peace? You don't want the money? Because there are people who have all the money and they're not happy? Don't you want peace? And they say yes, absolutely. And so I say, Okay, if you want peace, then we have to start with recognizing that the reason you're going for all of these external sources, these addictions is because you're looking and this is a big revelation. You're looking for validation. Because you're living in judgment, and that toggle right there between judgment and validation is the beginning of helping guys to find their why which ultimately is peace.

The Recovering CEO  8:48  
Interesting, interesting. So why did you start this tennis? Why did you start man up life coaching? How did you get into this?

Dennis Procopio  8:59  
As you've noticed, I'm a bit of a monologue. So if I go too far, feel free to throw a hand up. But this is what I do for a living. I talk all day. I started this. Honestly, I had a really, really rough life, man. I mean, I'm 51 now but the first 30 something years really sucked. I've been to 24 something different, you know, 2020 some odd different schools. I was homeless in high school in Long Island, but still managed to be top of my class, graduated and get a scholarship to Cooper Union for the advancement of science and art. So the whole my whole life, I had this sort of Michael Jordan like chip on my shoulder that I was just going to prove the world wrong. Like I I got dealt this terrible hand, but I was going to prove to the world that I could do in any way that I didn't suck. My whole existence has been about demonstrating my competence, a competency and mine right to be regarded as an equal, even though I started out with a pretty crap hand. So once I got to the other side, and I did develop personal success in my life by making some major adjustments, I look back at all the guys who were struggling with some of the same problems I hadn't said, I know from going to therapy that for a lot of guys, therapy's not going to work. And I know, no disrespect, because I love I'm not making a gender statement here. But I learned for myself, that working with male mentors was critical to helping me to redefine my own male identity. And so I felt a sense of obligation to pay it back. And that's why I started man up life coaching.

The Recovering CEO  10:45  
Yeah, I love that. Dennis, you know, I, I've worked in the advertising business for a long time. And I remember working in big agencies, and saying to myself, there are no mentors, there is no business mentors, like, and I tried to find some, and people are just busy, and they didn't care. And they were hard to reach and doors are closed. And it's ridiculous. Like, how are you supposed to? You know, and I understand. So I understand why you're doing this, you know, I feel like everyone deserves a hand up, like nobody makes it on their own. We all need help, like, you know, Hey, man, let me show you the way, you know, so you're kind of doing that with, with people. And I think that's one of the reasons that I'm doing this podcast as well is because people need help, you know, and you never know when they're going to come in and how they're going to start raising their awareness that maybe they need to change something. And like a podcast is a good way to do that. Right? Obviously, or videos or, you know, training or like mentoring, like you're doing so. Like, we're on the same. Yeah, playing.

Dennis Procopio  11:41  
We're on we're doing the same work. Right. You know, I heard something recently that I really tuned into. It was I was having a conversation about being American, and how we have this idea that our rights are very, you know, a critical part of our identity as Americans. And by contrast, I have a lot of clients who are Asian, I'm lucky enough to have a business with global reach. And Asian clients have shared with me, you know, the difference between the Western and the eastern mentality is where we're less interested in our rights and more interested in our obligation. And if you think about that, that's really big, rather than what is the world doing for me, it's what am I offering the world and I think a big part of my personal growth, has been getting over this story. I was abused, therefore, I'm entitled in the world owes me something. And staying in stead, dude, suck it up, and get out there and help somebody who's less fortunate than you. And once I made that paradigm shift, that's when I really started to grow as a person.

The Recovering CEO  13:03  
That's so interesting, that just that line, you said where I was abused, or I dealt with trauma. So the world owes me something like, I've never heard someone quite explain that, you know, and it's so interesting, because like, you know, I've put alcohol and drugs for 20, almost 26 years now. And I used to justify having like a 32 ounce ice cold coke, right at a movie theater, because I know it's not super healthy. But I'm like, You know what, screw this. I gave up. I quit alcohol. I quit all the drugs. I deserve this freaking ice cold Coca Cola, you know, but I don't know if that's necessarily true. Like, the world doesn't owe me anything. You know, the government doesn't owe me anything. Nobody owes me anything. I mean, can you talk a little more about that concept? I think that's pretty profound. That shift.

Dennis Procopio  13:46  
Yeah. So entitlement is a is a thing that I deal with a lot. So when I started out again, now, I again, as I said, I'm sure there are people who have had a worse ride than me, but I had it pretty bad. I mean, I'll just be completely candid and say, I am a victim of physical abuse. I'm a fifth victim of child molestation. I was raised in poverty, I was at a certain point, I became an alcoholic. You know, I had my little, you know, foray with drugs. And all along the way, I had this sort of, you know, walking in Phoenix, the Joker sort of vibe, where, you know, I was just this quiet, pissed dude who felt like, it was me and them, and I just, at some point, I was going to get what I deserve from them. And that, that that lack mentality actually prevented me from putting out a vibration of deserve once and instead I was this sort of bizarre person who was saying I When everything, but not letting myself have it, I wasn't really presenting myself as somebody who was willing to accept the things that life could potentially have given me. Instead, I was saying, I want everything that I deserve it because I because me, me, me, me, me, me, me. But I was a caustic kind of dig. And one of the most valuable things that I learned was, the change begins with practicing. I sound like a hippie say, I'm not, but maybe Southern California has done this to me but practicing meditation, practicing inner stillness, practicing peace, practicing peace, choosing peace as an alternative to ACC. And learning that the world owes me absolutely nothing. The ride I had sucked. But there are many other people who are either openly or quietly suffering in their own lives, and their suffering is no much no less valid than my own suffering. And that it's my responsibility to first accept what's happened to me in my own life, then recognize that my obligation is still to be in service to my brothers in need. Go out there and selflessly do that job. And as I do that, I've relinquish this, this narrative that I'm clutching on to that I deserve anything I don't. I deserve nothing. I'm here. It was a roll of the dice. I was the sperm that cut through and the rest is in the details. You know what I mean?

The Recovering CEO  16:47  
Wow. Do you ever listen to Gary Vaynerchuk? Do you know Gary Vee?

Dennis Procopio  16:51  
I do know. Yeah. He Yeah, he's a very insight. Yeah.

The Recovering CEO  16:55  
But he he preaches. I mean, I think he's doing similar work as well. Right? So he's super successful in business. But he's teaching people like, it's not about the money. He's like, You have to love it. You know, don't do it for the money you have to do it for, for you, you know, and he talks about being kind and empathy, and just all these things that a lot of people think aren't important or aren't aren't the keys to success. So I just think it's interesting to listen to some of these other people that are doing this. But yeah, I don't know. But

Dennis Procopio  17:26  
I hear you. And I think that, I think that we, as we age, I don't know if it's really as we age that let me retract that, because I have clients that are in their late 60s and early 70s. And they're still rebellious teenager. So I think I should say rather, as we mature, I think that as we mature, we begin to recognize the importance of our inter and intra personal relationships. Our interpersonal relationships, obviously, is the way we relate to others. And our intra personal relationship is how we relate to ourselves. And I think that when we focus primarily on inter and intra personal relationships, the tail follows the head. I think that's the first thing that needs to be figured out. And I can dial into that a little bit more by saying, okay, so you're a life coach. Right? So what do you actually do? Okay, work with guys between 20 something and 60? Something? What does that look like? It means to me, we meet once a week, typically in zoom, and they have to get out of survival mode and into creative mode. Why is it survival mode? It's survival mode, because they're doing all the things that they've been taught to do. This is their how, how do I make money? How do I survive? But they're not living up to their why? Why do I do any of this? Why? Fundamentally, we're all doing it. Our Why is the same. You're here to love your brother, and you're here to love yourself as a part of something bigger than you. I mean, I sound like an evangelist, but

The Recovering CEO  19:20  
can you? Can you get it? I get it. Yeah. So So here's a question for you. Because so I understand the hippie and the meditation and the mindfulness. And, you know, I work on that, too. I'm not necessarily very good at it. But you know, I realized that in order to be successful, I do need to take time to meditate to you know, do some reading to do some journaling, and all these things I need to do, you know, maybe get a life coach or go to therapy or do all these things. And then it's like, if I do all that exercise, how do I have time to do the survival things, you know, like, how do I have time to ah, if I do all that other crap, but I think what I've learned through through failure, I guess, you know, is that if I don't do that stuff, it's hard to get anything else done? I don't know.

Dennis Procopio  20:09  
Well, it's funny that you say that I'm gonna respond directly to that because you're man, are you in my, in my, in my neck of the woods with that observation. One of the things that we talk about a lot in my coaching program is balancing linear drive with lateral drift. Okay, as guys, we're very production oriented. So our value is associated with our productivity. So we're constantly on this linear drive. The more I do, the better I am. And we think of the lateral drift as being unproductive. And therefore a waste of time. I recently heard a sort of metaphor that puts this into perspective, the importance of working smart rather than hard. So it's basically these two lumberjacks, let's imagine there's a whole bunch of trees and there's a line down the middle and the guy on the left and the guy on the right are both have the same axe, they're the same size, they come to work every day. And their job is to chop down these trees. Well, the guy on the left swings his axe for like, you know, eight hours a day non stop, the guy on the right, stops for an hour. But at the end of the day, the guy on the right, who stopped for an hour, cut some more trees down. At the end of a week. He's cut significantly more trees down. And at the end of the month. He's so far ahead of the other guy that the other guys throws his axe down and goes down at what, what's happened in here. I'm working just as hard as view. You're taking an hour off, but you're being ultimately more productive. What's your secret? He says, Well, during that hour, that I take off, I sharpen my axe. Yeah. And so I like to think of meditation as not unproductive time. But that's when you're sharpening your ax.

The Recovering CEO  22:08  
That really explains it. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean, I've heard that metaphor before about sharpening the axe, but I've never related it specifically to this. I think that's exactly right. Interesting.

Dennis Procopio  22:24  
Yeah. So. So if you were to try to take this idea of linear and lateral drive a little bit further, you originally said, okay, there are these things that I know that I should probably be doing be doing, I should probably be meditating, I should probably be journaling. But then there are all these, these, these survival things that I need to do, I gotta go to work and make the donuts. I gotta, whatever, get up in the morning and do my exercises, because I made a commitment to my myself that I would exercise, I've got to whatever tasks you have sort of calendar out, calendar it out for yourself over the course of the day. So one of the things that we do in life coaching is we say let's be realistic. What are your expectations for yourself over the course of a year? Now, let's reverse engineer, what's that look like over six months? What's that look like? Over three months? What's a month look like? And then what's the day look like? Let's calendar those things. So one of the most fundamental things that we do in life coaching is getting guys to be honest with themselves about how much they want to do, and how many hours there are in the day. And if you're overbooking yourself, you need to be realistic and decide where your priorities are. But one of my caveats is don't put meditation and journaling and self work on a back burner and say that it's not a priority. Ditch something else that's productivity oriented. And I think you'll find that you have better balance.

The Recovering CEO  24:02  
Yeah, no, I really, I like that. Dennis, you know, and I feel like, I feel like sometimes personally, I don't do that. Because I'm stuck in this frantic mode. Like you said, this frantic mode where I feel desperate where I need to make money or I need to do these things. I need all these things. And it's and sometimes doing the daily daily work of meditation or sharpening my axe, it feels like it's more like a build, like it takes over time. Like I do it every day. And then after six months, or after a year, it's like wow, that was a big impact. But it's hard to see it at the moment where I'm like, I need to do these things. It's a big mind shift, I think to purposeful living as opposed to maybe rational living or you know, reaction reacting to everything and freaking out as opposed to living with purpose and direction.

Dennis Procopio  24:54  
That's right, and you know, it brings that's another conversation we have pretty regularly So I said to you that when a guy comes in, he's in survival mode, and where he's going his creative mode, but I didn't mention that the, my client retention is typically 12 to 24 months. So though I've had clients who have been with me for five and six years at this point. Typically I break our time together into trimesters, I say when you're first onboarding, you're in survival mode, what we're going to do is we're going to look at the script that you've been reading off of, we're going to keep the good stuff. But we're going to renegotiate some of the stuff that's not optimal. And I'm going to help you to see through my lens drawing from a database of experience working with guys, and if I can get you to stipulate to making some changes to your script, then we're going to go set week after week, from week to week, you're gonna, it's going to be a little turbulent in the beginning, because we're teaching an old dog new tricks. But if we stay for consistent, if we're persistent, and we continue doing it, eventually you're going to flatten the curve. And you're going to be in this nice holding pattern. Well, that middle trimester is what I call maintenance mode. And in maintenance mode, you're learning how to do these new things that you have not ever done before. And eventually, these habits take root now what's going to happen along the way, but just like watching a stock, when you have those bad days, it's just like watching your stock dropping, and you're gonna have fun, you're gonna have fear, uncertainty and doubt. And the game that we play is learning how to replace fear with faith. Now, I have guys who I work with who come from all walks of life Abrahamic religions, Judaism, you know, a Christianity. Islam, a lot of Indian, so a lot of Hindus, zero estrus, everybody. And then people who are like, I'm spiritual, but not religious. And then people are like, Yeah, I don't even talk that crazy talk. But everybody has in common that they appreciate the difference between faith and fear in a moment of mortal terror. So one of the jobs of your coach is to handhold you through the maintenance mode, and get you to the point where you recognize that faith actually does inform positive outcome, and that fear feeds itself. So that's the game we play.

The Recovering CEO  27:41  
Sounds this sounds really useful. So tell me this, because so relationships, right, so, you know, I relationships, like with people I work with, you know, and in AAA, you know, they talk about we're powerless over people, places and things, right. In my opinion, relationships are some of the hardest things in my life, and the stress of relationships, including, like spouse life, partner relationships. So I still want to hear what you're doing, you know, helping helping men become better men, helping them kind of be more at peace, right? And find their why I imagined that would help them build better relationships with people and connect better with friends, coworkers and significant others. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dennis Procopio  28:27  
I can. So one of the things that I've noticed is consistent with my guys over the years is that when they communicate, they communicate information in the relationship with a spouse, she is usually communicating feelings. And what happens a lot is she accuses him of either not listening, or have being invalidating of her feelings or not sharing or his his feelings or being openly communicative in a way that makes her feel like there's some deeper level of intimacy here. That's a big one is that can you vibe with

The Recovering CEO  29:13  
intimacy for women is so much different than what a guy would think of intimacy.

Dennis Procopio  29:19  
That's, that's typically what I've experienced as a coach. And although it's a bit of a dated reference at this point, particularly in the age of people really exploring gender identification beyond the binary, right, the guys that I work with, typically not 100% but typically are guys who are heading into traditional relationships, typical man, male female relationships. And one of the books back in the 90s that I found effective for helping me to crack the code between you know, men and women communicating in these traditional relationships was John Grace men are from Mars. As women are from Venus. So there are some ideas that I pull from that book that I find pretty effective in helping guys to communicate in relationships. And they're things like, hey, when she needs to talk, she needs to talk right now. She comes barging in with this, my emergency is your emergency energy, and he's supposed to just drop everything and listen to this verbal onslaught, complete with information that's probably not very flattering about him. It doesn't sound like validation. His response has to be very aggressively defensive and reactive, which invalidates her, he wants to retreat into his little cave, and process, this sudden, emergence emergency that he's dealing with. And she proceeds his inclination to withdraw as invalidating and he perceives her onslaught as invalidating. So one of the things that we learned here, as guys and men up life coaching is how to first give her what she wants, because we're gentleman, and then once she's feeling like, Oh, my God, he's doing something new. And I like it, then we begin to negotiate for what we would like in return. Yeah, yeah. Now good.

The Recovering CEO  31:30  
I was gonna say, I love that, you know, and I can really relate, I have two daughters, I'm married, you know, like, my wife used to come like, I'd be ready to go to bed and very tired. And she would like, turn the light on and have to talk about something. And it was very important that I wanted to sleep. I'm like, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. And but You're 100%, right, like, if I, and it took me a long time to learn this, because this caused lots of conflict. Once I listen, validate, put her at ease, then she can go back to bed. If I if I reject her and shut her off and try and go to my cave and say, leave me alone. I'm sleeping. I'm dead. Yeah, I'm in trouble.

Dennis Procopio  32:08  
Yeah, yeah. And you've and your your way out. Man. It's you and two daughters forget about it. I, I have I have a client I'm thinking of right now in Toronto, who similarly has a very emotionally sensitive wife and two teenage daughters. And he comes to sessions like, Dude, I need a session, I just need to talk to a bro. I want to extend the idea. In a more general way you asked first about spousal relationship, and then as a continuance of this idea, about the about the relationships with people that you might see at work, or family, or whomever. As a general rule. As a general rule, you're going to deal with all different types of people, you're going to deal with all different sensitivity levels, some people are going to be at water off a duck's back, you know, and some people are gonna be like, Oh, you hurt my feelings, because you made a comment about my shoes or whatever. So as a general rule, what I've observed is that in dealing with people gamify it and always ask yourself am I saying something that is being perceived as validating? Or am I saying something that is being perceived as potentially critical? If you are the guy that people say, you know, who always has a nice thing to say about everybody and never says anything negative? Derek? Derek, all he does, he smiles at Yeah, he waves Hi, he, you know, when he goes out to get lunch, he asks, If you want a cup of coffee, he's always like, Oh, I like your I like your shoes. You know? Hey, I really enjoyed that thing. You said in the meeting today. If you're constantly validating people, like, I like babies, if you smile at babies, they smile back. And if they don't, okay, well, that's, that's the baby's problem. That's not mine. Sometimes you validate people and they mean mouth. Yeah, that's their issue. So in that case, you have grace is Eric, this person's a little, little prickly. But still, you don't take personally and also, if you're in a narrative with yourself about what people think of you knock that off, knock that off, just do the best you can to be the best version of you in terms of performance, and in terms of being in service to the people around you. And don't don't look around for social receipts for how well you're doing. Don't look around for report card. Just keep giving. That's my advice.

The Recovering CEO  34:46  
That's great. That's great. So this I mean, I love the concept, you know, because I've been in therapy for a long time. And I've been through lots of training whatnot, but I love the idea of kind of like a bro coach. I love that idea. You know, it's cool. So Dennis, I'm really glad to meet you. And I think it's wonderful what you're doing man up life coaching.

Dennis Procopio  35:10  
Hey, Derek, it's really a pleasure to meet you, too. I told you when I met you've got a great radio voice. I really love the the bro energy you've been? You've asked really great questions. You've been a great listener. And I hope that my being here, add some value to your, to your podcast and to your listening.

The Recovering CEO  35:27  
100% 100% Man, I mean, really, it's been helpful to me, you know, sometimes I get an expert like you on and I'm like, Oh, this is kind of like a therapy session. For me. This is great, you know? And I feel like better afterwards. I'm really grateful to learn from you.

Dennis Procopio  35:40  
Oh, thank you so much. And hey, if anybody's ever interested in finding out more about me, they can go to man up life coaching.com? Or if that's a way too much to remember, they can just go to male life coach.

The Recovering CEO  35:55  
Awesome. Yeah, I will put Dennis I will put links to all your stuff in the show notes. And did you have any final statement you want to give to our listeners before we close?

Dennis Procopio  36:07  
I guess because your primary listening audience is people dealing with addiction. I just want to say I'm this April, I'm I'm sober 15 years. And I quit drinking in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. I was a Katrina victim. And let me tell you quitting drinking in New Orleans is I mean, it's a it's a challenge. But I cannot believe that I'm sitting here today saying I'm sober 15 years. So it's really just a message of encouragement. Hey, if you're listening to this right now and you're struggling, you can do it and I know that because I did it. That's my message.

The Recovering CEO  36:50  
Yeah. Love that Dennis. And thank you everyone for listening to the recovering SEO podcast. Please be sure to rate review and subscribe. Whether it's on YouTube or any podcast system, and big thanks to Dennis Procopio of man up coaching. Have a good day Dennis. All right.

Dennis Procopio  37:07  
Thank you man. You too.