The Recovering CEO 0:03
Hello and welcome to the recovering CEO podcast. My name is Derek Mehraban, the recovering CEO, and today we have a special guest who is actually live in New Mexico. But it's more than that she started a opioid addiction nonprofit run by students that is designed to distribute overdose protection kits and also provide education to anyone related to opioid addiction and then accidental deaths from opioid overdose. Obey explain that properly. But the lookout project, and Victoria Garrow is the leader of that organization. How are you Victoria?
Victoria Garrow 0:44
I'm doing really well. Really excited to be here and talk with you more today, Eric?
The Recovering CEO 0:49
Awesome. Awesome. Well, yeah, I was so excited when I heard about your project and what you're doing, because I feel like it's super important. And I mean, tell me a little bit, you know, what is the lookout project? What exactly are you doing?
Victoria Garrow 1:02
Absolutely. So I think you described it pretty well. We are mostly students, our recently graduated students, so mostly all under the age of 25. Just volunteering our hours and coming together because we're passionate about preventing opioid overdose deaths, as well as breaking down stigma and prioritizing rehabilitation over criminalization in relation to mental health and specifically addiction.
The Recovering CEO 1:28
Yeah, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Victoria. I mean, you know, as you know, and one of the reasons we're talking is, you know, the recovering CEO podcast is designed to help people that are dealing with addiction, and that certainly could be opioid addiction, you know, heroin. There's lots of different pills that people get addicted to. I mean, there's, there's lots of things to get addicted to addicted to in today's world. And so we deal with all types of addictions. So this is definitely relevant to our audience. So So tell me, you're on the road right now. Right? You're kind of traveling the country. What are we even doing lately?
Victoria Garrow 2:04
Yeah, so I'm very fortunate to be able to do some skiing while I'm out west. This year, I started skiing when I was three years old. And now I am 22 years old. So I can't believe I'm going on almost two decades of skiing, but it is just a passion of mine. And I feel most myself. So I went to Taos yesterday, and last week and did some skiing in Colorado last week as well. So it's been fantastic.
The Recovering CEO 2:32
That's lucky you. And then is it right here coming back to Michigan and you're going to be going to medical school.
Victoria Garrow 2:41
Yeah, so I was accepted to the University of Michigan Medical School during my senior year at University of Michigan. And I was really struggling with burnout at the end of college. I mean, I have been in school since I was four years old, and always taken on a lot of challenges and extracurriculars throughout the summer and whatnot. And I was really just feeling exhausted and struggling with depression at the end of the pandemic. And I really wanted to travel and I found a van on van camper calm, asked if I could defer for a year, and then got a one way ticket to Montana.
The Recovering CEO 3:23
Wow, love it. I love it. And that's that's really what life is all about. But you were just in town recently right for a addiction event, right where you distributed kits. I mean, tell me a little bit about that event.
Victoria Garrow 3:35
Absolutely. So it was on to 20 to 22. And that's actually how I knew I had to go because 22 has been my lucky number growing up. So attended this event, and it was called we can be heroes. The first really awesome part of it is that there was a showcase for artists who have been affected by substance use disorders. So the community got to see some brilliant, amazing art and also engage with the artists there. And then there was a movie actually about a boxer named Taylor door, who's from Michigan, and he recounts his stories throughout the documentary of how he struggled with addiction. And as well as all the people he's unfortunately lost to overdose and the experiences that he's had himself with overdose, and how he really poured his heart into into boxing and has been on an ongoing journey of recovery. And so after that event, there was a panel discussion and Taylor pulled a list out of his pocket and read through a few dozen names of people that were either close acquaintances or friends of his growing up who had passed and an overdose. And so the lookout project team was in the lobby before and after the event, as well as watching the event. And passing out overdose response gets to anyone who is willing to take one and and learn how to be equipped.
The Recovering CEO 5:03
Well, well, was there a pretty positive reaction from the community for the free giveaways for the kit?
Victoria Garrow 5:10
Yeah, absolutely, there definitely was. And the whole event was free, which is really awesome to just remove any barriers there. But everyone was excited to see us. And it was also really exciting to hear some feedback about people who had already heard about the work we were doing.
The Recovering CEO 5:28
That's wonderful. Yeah, that really is a great way to make a difference, you know, and I would not have that event, I really wish I was to see that movie and to, like, hear the stories. We I know a lot of people that have died in recovery. And oftentimes, they just say, well, so and so. died, you know, they never say why, but almost always. It's an overdose. And I think I mean, you you know, this more than I do, but the person does not mean to overdose. It's almost always accidental, right? I mean, it's, and there's lots of reasons why it happens. Right? I mean, is that is that true? In your experience?
Victoria Garrow 6:09
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, this, this podcast is focused specifically to people in the workplace and overdose can happen anywhere, which is why it's really great to be equipped and hold on to an overdose response kit, anytime. But also, specifically, one population that the lookout project has a big heart for it, people who have been recently incarcerated, as that community is up to 127 times more likely to die of a drug overdose than the general population in the two weeks following being released from incarceration.
The Recovering CEO 6:49
Wow. Wow. Tell us about that. Cuz I know you had kind of a unique story growing up, and your biological mother actually passed away from overdose. Can you tell us a little bit about that story?
Victoria Garrow 7:03
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So growing up, things were were definitely a mix of going back and forth between stable and tumultuous, because of the different addictions that were manifesting in my family. And my biological mom and dad, both were using substances at the time and ended up splitting up when I was about two years old. And by the time I was about five or six, my biological dad had gotten remarried, and I ended up getting adopted by his new wife. And that was because, unfortunately, my biological mom, my Katie mom, I always called her. She was just too sick to be able to take care of someone else at that stage in her addiction. And so she she first became addicted when when she was 19 years old. And that continued on until she passed away when I was 13, after being released from incarceration, for a drug possession, and so essentially, she was ill, she had a substance use disorder, and obviously, then had had drugs that were deemed illegal. Then she was she was put in jail instead of being provided rehabilitation. And like so many others after she gets out. Her tolerance is way down. And she goes to use the same amount that she was treated for before because she hasn't received proper addiction treatment services while being incarcerated. And it's too much. And with opioids, being in the brain and mass mass like that, it essentially shuts down our breathing. And if there isn't someone there to wake you up, or call 911 or administer Narcan. The person dies. And unfortunately, that's what happened to my Katie mom, and has happened to so many other loved ones throughout this country.
The Recovering CEO 9:09
Wow, that is so so. Huge. So. So that incident, you know, and then as you grew up, you realize that there was there was a real need for this type of not only, not only these kits, right to have Narcan or to have, you know, something that can actually save the person but also the education about what to do what to look for all those things.
Victoria Garrow 9:33
Yeah, absolutely. So I started realizing the importance of all of that, really kind of between my sophomore and junior year of college at U of M. But I just want to give you a little bit of background of how I got there, because a lot of people that are in my situation, unfortunately are not able to escape those tough, abusive situations. Often when people are struggling with substance use disorders. And so really, what saved me is maybe just another form of addiction. And that was just wanting to gain people's approval and succeed. And so throughout high school, I decided I wanted to be a doctor was super intrigued by genetics. But also, you know, I figured it would be a pretty cool feather in my cap to have an MD Adana my name. But, you know, I was working for that working for that and got to do shadowing in high school on a heart unit got to be a part of a Career Technical Center for Allied Health, I learned so much the stack a lot of cow hearts, and was just super, super excited about it. I got involved with an organization called Health Occupation students of America and really started developing leadership through that, and gotten to you event, they sent me a packet in the mail that said that if I was accepted, they would provide me with a four year full ride scholarship. And so I was just blown away to realize that this opportunity was was within my reach. And so I ended up pursuing that. But as I was going on through my first and second year of college at the University of Michigan, I was trying to check all the right boxes, trying to make sure I got shadowing hours trying to make sure I did research. And I was actually with a mentor in a brain cancer research lab that I was working on. And I was sharing about my KT mom's story and about the opioid epidemic and addiction. And I realized that I could be a part of that work as a physician, I could be a part of something that I am so passionate about. And sure while you know doing cell cultures and trying to find cures for brain cancer is super exciting. It wasn't, it was still work. It wasn't my passion. But moving into the summer, before my junior year, I was trying to find an internship. And I was at this crossroads where I had been accepted for an internship for brain cancer stem cell research at Harvard. And I was also accepted for an internship at Johns Hopkins University, specifically working with HIV AIDS and hepatitis C. And while my whole life had been consumed by my desire to achieve and get into schools like Harvard, I really decided to be honest with myself about how I wanted my life to go and ended up turning down Harvard, and going to Baltimore for 11 weeks. And there, I worked at a clinic for people who inject drugs, and I also became certified as a tester and counselor for HIV AIDS and hepatitis C and there during our street outreach team, met a woman who had just realized she was four months pregnant and addicted to heroin, and also saw Narcan being passed out and started reflecting on the great need, specifically for people that incarcerated in this country to have access to those life saving
The Recovering CEO 13:24
resources. Really amazing story. You sound like a child proud of the amazing. Yeah, but it's good, right? So it kind of led you down that path. And you realize that you can use your power for good, so to speak, right? Yeah, very interesting. So you started this nonprofit when you were still in undergrad? Is that accurate?
Victoria Garrow 13:51
Yeah, yeah, I was 19. At the time that I came up with the idea in October 2019.
The Recovering CEO 13:57
Okay, okay. And how, how did you get funding? And how can people done this? I mean, I know it's a nonprofit, right? So imagine you take donations like, how does that work for your organization?
Victoria Garrow 14:10
Yeah, absolutely. So starting off, I saw this poster on campus, and it said, optimize social innovation challenge when up to 20,000, or $20,000, to fund your ideas. And their slogan was always why not me? In relation to social issues, right? Like why not step up and make a change that I that I want to see in the world. And so gotten involved in that and recruited team members through that. And by February of 2020, we were standing in front of a panel of 25 judges, and out of hundreds of teams. We ended up being one of the teams selected to receive the project funding and so that's how we got started. And moving forward we continue to have a lot of other people invest in us including the Barger leadership and to do at the University of Michigan, the awesome foundation of Ann Arbor, the Ann Arbor community, or Ann Arbor Area Community Foundation, which provides us with awesome Katchafire resources. And also U of M library grants. So we've had a variety of funding. But now to really keep this project sustainable, we're moving a lot more towards, as you said, donations and also fundraising. And so, coming up in the community, we're hoping to do some restaurant fundraisers. And that's kind of just our dipping our toes in the water, but also going to be collecting donations at different events that we continue to engage in, in the community. And on our website, look@project.org. We also have a donation page, and so people can feel free to donate through PayPal, or Venmo. or sending cheques.
The Recovering CEO 15:58
Okay, okay, that's amazing. So you said student run. So there are other students that are part of this organization? Is that correct?
Victoria Garrow 16:08
Yeah, yeah. So we're around I believe we're approaching about 20 people at this point on the team. And we have six different committees. We have a research committee, a kit, distribution committee, nonprofit management, community outreach, funds. And also the last one, oh, education. Yes. So those are six committees, and all led by either people who have graduated last year from the University of Michigan, or are currently at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, or Dearborn. And we're hoping to get more students involved in this project from other schools as well, as well as adults, and specifically people who have had experience with overdose, or opioid addiction. We're always looking for ideas, suggestions, partnerships, and would love any nominations from you or the audience for our community advisory board?
The Recovering CEO 17:17
Yeah, no, I definitely, I think know, some people that could help you. Now that I'm learning more about your project. So just some thoughts because you mentioned there's a high rate of overdose for people to get out of prison. Right. And we, we both know that it's really wrong, that people get shoved into jails and prisons, because there really is no, no good treatment and mental health care for them. You know, and unless you have an inordinate amount of money to pay for it, you're really, you're stuck, you know, they just prosecute, you know, the war on drugs, they just prosecute people that have drugs or do drugs. So we have a long way to go there. Also, I think you mentioned to me last time, we spoke about a really high overdose rate among African Americans. Specifically, Is that Is that something you've seen in your kind of research?
Victoria Garrow 18:11
So that's definitely a huge problem. And unfortunately, African American men especially are very vulnerable. And I think this is for a variety of reasons. And as a white young woman, I do not necessarily feel qualified to relay all this information. But from my understanding, obviously, black men are being incarcerated at way higher rates in our country than other populations. And so within the prison industrial complex, we have super high rates of black men, and we know that people being released from incarceration are going to be susceptible to overdose. So that is one big overlap, as well as the vaccine that unfortunately, African Americans are less likely to have access to some of these resources, including harm reduction supplies, whether that be because of their insurance, whether or not they have access to medical care or harm reduction services in their area. So that's also a big focus of the lookout project and something we're hoping to expand on. And we have been doing some research about who our tests have been going to. And it looks like we're riding a bit over 9% of our kits going to people who selected just identifying as African American. And so that is, I believe, just slightly lower than the percent in our country. And you don't want to cite me on that exactly. But I believe it's somewhere between 10 and 13% of our country identifies as African American. And so we're Really hoping to continue to have that percentage increase? That way, we can just promote equity and having these resources be distributed to those most in need.
The Recovering CEO 20:11
Right, right or right. Yeah, no, Victoria is wonderful. You know, I know we were talking last time about ways to get the message out there. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about your story. I'm thinking about the stories of people who, whose loved one have overdosed. Right. And I do feel like those stories are probably the most powerful way to tell, you know, to kind of raise awareness, right, because, like, when I read a story about someone that overdoses accidentally, you know, especially if it could have been avoided. Especially if they were young, you know, all these things. It's, it's heartbreaking, right? And it's heartbreaking. So have you had like, people come to you who have had loved ones overdose, like family members, things like that. And they come to you and and wanted to help or share their experiences and stories?
Victoria Garrow 21:03
Yes, almost every day. It is very rare for me to ever meet someone who cannot at the very least say that they are someone they know, has been seriously affected by addiction. And more often than I would like, unfortunately, actually, just yesterday, when I was skiing at house, I was skiing with a new friend that I met. And I was telling her about the lookout project. And she told me that as a child, I think she said she was seven at the time, she called an ambulance because her mom had overdosed on opioids. And so this is just a story we hear over and over and over again. And that is very often why people are getting involved with a lookout project is because they've lost a loved one to an overdose. And so just so grateful for the way that in light of such an injustice, that people can stand up and fight against that and try just help that in honor of a life loss if they're being saved.
The Recovering CEO 22:13
100% 100% You know, it's interesting, I was just, you know, when I was reading through the look out Project website and whatnot. I know you said your your Katie, Mom, your biological mom was named Katie. Yeah. Correct. J. That was that was my biological mom's name, which I didn't realize you had that in common, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, I was adopted, I was adopted. And that granted, I was adopted as a baby, you know. But I learned as I met my biological mom, and my biological father, that alcoholism is rampant, you know, addiction, drug addiction. It's rampant in my past, you know, and that's, I think, part of my job. And one of the reasons I started the podcast, is to kind of break the cycle. You know, I feel like by raising awareness, and by changing how we act and changing how we treat mental illness and whatnot, we can break the cycle. And it seems like this intervention that you're introducing, you know, like, for example, you suggest businesses like my business or, or like corporation should have Narcan kits and overdose protection kits as a standard practice, right, in addition to their band aid, that whatever other first aid kit they have lying around, exactly we need we need, we need to change the way people deal with this correct?
Victoria Garrow 23:36
I definitely think so. I think that everyone should know about how to respond to an overdose the same way that everyone knows that when you give CPR, you know, you're going to the stay alive song and have in the chest 30 times and given to things with air, like we know these things. So let's also know what Naloxone Narcan is and how to use it. And also, let's just continue to talk about these things and break down stigma because ultimately, it doesn't matter how much Naloxone we have. If people are using the loan out of shame and isolation from the stigma of addiction. It doesn't matter if there's no oxygen, they're there, they're going to pass and they're going to pass alone. So continuing to have these conversations, and to D stigmatize drug use and to just continue to make treatment more accessible. Ultimately, there aren't enough treatment resources in our country to serve everyone that needs treatment. So we need to keep talking about it and we need to keep making steps to make the situation better and and the war on drugs and instead, put all those funds towards rehabilitation and prevention.
The Recovering CEO 24:58
100% You know, I know Over in Europe, for example, they're like they're giving out things like clean needles there. There's actually places you can go to, to do drugs where it's safe, and where there is resources, you know? Because I think you're right, you know, like I've had, I've had people overdose, and it is they are alone. And, and it is, there's a lot of shame, you know, and, and depression or whatever, you know, and and then you get the call, and it's like, come on, and it's just, yeah, it sounds got to give. And there's like you said, there's not enough. There's not enough lifeguards before, there's not enough resources, like every therapist I know, is booked with a two to three month waiting list. And those are people that have insurance. I mean, insurance is so expensive, right? So like, I mean, mental health care is just not a priority versus putting food on the table. Right. But that's killing people. And I think it sounds like you're very passionate about this, and I am do it in a different way. It's exciting to think about,
Victoria Garrow 26:11
yeah, it is really upsetting. And there are so many issues, and sometimes the immensity of those issues can be paralyzing. But I think that, as I was just, I was actually just talking to Jim Palmer, who you've had on the podcast before, right before this, but we were chatting about addiction, and how the the Curia addiction is hope. And I think that's on a personal context of recovering from one substance use disorder, but also on a more community wide, and societal level, as well as his hope for the healing of these diseases and proper management of it both in terms of proper medical care, as well as just how we treat people who are suffering from substance use disorders. So that hope is that we're making strides, you talked about how in Europe, there are places safe injection sites, and actually there's one in New York now. So that's progress, that's making sure that people are alone and not going to die of an overdose while they're using it, also connecting them to services. And my hope, throughout my career, and my involvement in the lookout project, is to just inspire more people to go into this field, more therapists, more social workers, more addiction, medicine, doctors, psychologists, peer recovery coaches, all of the above, working together on this issue. And if we can keep inspiring people to go into helping other people recover, the more people who are to help, the more people are going to recover. And I am really hopeful for the generations to come and the changes that are being made first in our minds. And then hopefully, we can see them playing out in society in the next few decades in very real ways to make treatment equitable, accessible and effective.
The Recovering CEO 28:25
I love that. And yeah, I mean, Bravo victory. I mean, you're only 22 years old, I love the you're doing all this, you know, and, and honestly, I love that you're going to go to medical school because I do feel like that MD after your name will give you some of the credibility and the ability to even do greater, greater, you know, help. Greater help, you know, I just, I have to explain something and I feel like because I've been sober a long time, right? I've been sober like 25 years from drugs and alcohol. Alright, um, there's a little story I have just to tell you. But recently, you know, I struggled with really all addictions, you know, recently I had a sugar relapse right. I try not to eat sugar because I'm very addicted to sugar. And I was watching a presentation recently where they were talking about like, heroin or cocaine, you know, which come from poppies, right? Or from the cacao leaves and like, you know, the poppies aren't dangerous. You can eat them all day they could Callias people do eat them. It's like kind of like Poppy. And it's not dangerous until you distill it down to its essence, right. And consequently, heroin and cocaine similar to like, flour or sugar, which you know, sugar comes from lots of different things corn, sugar, cane, different things, which are all fine, but when you distill it down to the white powder and gum or the white crystals, then it becomes very, very addictive and sugar has a similar reaction to, like drugs, like it's similarly addictive. And so I was on the sugary last, right, and it's like 25 years in my rearview mirror and doing any drugs. But you know, everyone's had a town last week, like my wife was on spring break with my daughter, nobody was home. And I like, in my house, you know, I make sure I have enough ice cream like Hot Fudge, candy bar, craziness, you know, and it reminds me very similar to someone who gets all their drugs and like, and sets up shop, you know, to do drugs, or as or drinks get up gets on the alcohol together. So I don't believe and I can just drink as much as I want, until I can't do any more. And but when I say something like that, I say that because there's some people out there that don't understand. And honestly, someone hooked on heroin is not very different, in my opinion than someone hooked on sugar than you think one might be more acceptable, but that's also bullshit. You know what I mean? They're both like addictive drugs, addictive substances. And so I think, you know, part of that education is letting people understand like, Hey, man, this is not much different than you, you know, eating a bowl of ice cream every night, right? I mean, it's slightly different. Maybe ice cream won't kill you, but diabetes will kill you, you know, heart failure. It's it's such a struggle to avoid these things that are very, very, very, honestly.
Victoria Garrow 31:25
Absolutely. And there's just so much judgment around certain things specifically in relation to pregnant people, which is kind of the field that I'm going down. But think about who's getting more judgment, someone that is using opioids during pregnancy, or someone that's eating a bunch of junk food. And it's probably going to be the person that is using opioids. And that's a whole nother topic I could go into, but that's what you can expect from from me in the future is narrowing in, as well as to that population.
The Recovering CEO 32:03
Yeah, no, I love that. And I think your generation are the ones to carry the torch, you know, the people that are young and graduating this next generation, these digital natives, who've grown up with more of a sense of, I mean, you could see what's happening, you can see it more. So. I think it's incredible. I mean, so I love the lookout project, I love it, I think it's gonna grow, you know, I do have some connections for you. I have some friends that are in like prison reform, and stuff like that, which I think could be good connections for you. But you know, I don't know, when you were telling me your story. Honestly, when you said you kind of got burnt out of school, and then you went skiing and all this. It made me wonder if he were still going to go to medical school, because you always went to school to try and you know, people please right? And to do, what would look? And then you made a choice to go skiing and take a year off. But do you think you'll come back to it? Can you come back to it with a different perspective?
Victoria Garrow 33:02
Yeah, so that's a good question. I'm actually currently editing a letter asking you if I'm medical school for another deferment, so hopefully, they read the letter before anyone listens to this podcast. But I am really thinking about taking one more year to continue leading the lookout project. Honestly, I've never been so happy working on something so content and so sure of myself working on something than I am now. And I do have a strong desire to become an OB GYN with a specialty in addiction medicine. But it seems like one of my motivators for starting it. This coming year is more so just what other people think like, oh, you know, just get on start school, bla bla bla bla bla. And I think my heart is telling me that one more year leading this organization, soaking in wisdom from all the people that are pouring into the lookout project right now. And as I mentioned before encouraging my peers to also pursue careers in addiction medicine and harm reduction. I just don't think I can pass up an opportunity to spend more one more year doing this work.
The Recovering CEO 34:24
Yeah, you got to, you got to trust your gut, you got to follow your heart. You know, I mean, you can turn on Harvard. I mean, like, you have, you have nothing to worry about. You do, you know, essentially, I know you're into skiing, right? And to tell me that like when you're skiing. Do you kind of hit that meditative state where you really kind of get inspired and you get ideas and like, you get clarity and things like that? Is that kind of a spiritual experience for you? Would you say?
Victoria Garrow 34:55
100%? Absolutely. And it's also But great break from phones, which is something that my generation also is very addicted to. And I've struggled with myself in the past. And so I think that for anyone seeking that flow state where they're really inspired to create something, do a project and work on something delightful. You need that deep focus and concentration that you can only get from separating yourself from something. So dopamine activating as our cell phones.
The Recovering CEO 35:30
Yeah, I mean, just just for a talk to you, I just interviewed a PhD who specializes in kind of like device addiction, and video game addiction, all those things that people are also struggling from. So yeah, I think I think we're all in it. And the reason he got in is because his daughter got her an iPhone, and she just like got lost in it. You know, I think we all have a reason to get in. And then we have to do our job to make a difference. It's like a calling, right? Like you said, you've never been more sure that this is your calling to do this, to look out project to help, right.
Victoria Garrow 36:08
Absolutely. I'm excited to listen that podcast as well.
The Recovering CEO 36:11
Yeah, it was very interesting. So okay, well, Victoria. I mean, I'm sure we could talk all day, I think you're very fascinating and interesting person. Is there anything you want to kind of like, tell our listeners to kind of sum up how they could help or what your advice to them would be?
Victoria Garrow 36:30
Yeah, absolutely. So I would say, first, let's take shame out of the picture. Let's stop associating shame with ourselves in relation to addictions we might be struggling with, and also encouraging Grace over shame in our relationships with other people with substance use disorders. And let's also just continue striving to get educated and learn more about what it's like to live with a substance use disorder, how we can work towards recovery, and how we can all do that as part of a supportive community. And that would be my takeaway. Feel free for anyone in Michigan to over order a free overdose response kit at Lookout project.org/get Narcan and also just wanted to give a huge shout out to all the amazing volunteers who are a part of making this project happen, as well as our awesome mentors, like Addiction Medicine doctor, Dr. Hopper, Dr. Jia Dom, a an expert on training on overdose prevention, as well as Norio nanosec gummies, against narcotics, and Derrick Jackson and Carrie racetracks in which have an awesome amount of affiliations in terms of social justice and recovery in this community. So thank you to everyone. And thank you, Derek, for having me.
The Recovering CEO 37:58
Well, wow, yeah, Victoria, you're awesome. Look out project.org. We will post information about you and your link all links to your project, and I'll be able to get support in the show notes. And thank you for being a part of the recovering to podcasts. I've really enjoyed talking to you, Victoria.
Victoria Garrow 38:18
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Derek. And for you and any listener, feel free to reach out to me at Victoria at the lookout project.org. The email address has got and the website does not have the word doc, unfortunately. But we'd love to chat with anyone and thank you so much.
The Recovering CEO 38:36
Thank you very much.
