Below is a transcription from The Recovering CEO Podcast interview of TJ Woodward. TJ is founder of Conscious Recovery, a groundbreaking and effective approach to viewing and treating addiction that will transform your life. Conscious Recovery is changing the conversation about addiction, because it recognizes that underneath all addictive behavior is an essential self that is whole and perfect.
Derek Mehraban 0:00
Hello, welcome to The Recovering CEO podcast. I'm Derek the recovering CEO. Today I'm here with a special guest all the way from California. TJ Woodward, a revolutionary recovery expert, Best Selling Author, inspirational, inspirational speaker and addiction treatment specialist. TJ has helped countless people through the simple yet powerful teachings. He's the creator of the conscious recovery method, groundbreaking and effective approach to viewing and treating addiction. TJ as a featured thought leader on wholehearted.org, along with Brene Brown, Marianne Williamson, Dr. Gabor Matei. And Mark Lundholm, is given. He was given the honor of being ordained as a gay minister by Dr. Michael Beckwith, and was also the founding Minister of agape bei hope I'm saying that right. It gave Bay Area and Oakland, which was the first settler community of agape international spiritual center in LA. TJ is the author of best selling books, conscious being awakening to our true nature, conscious recovery, a fresh perspective on addiction and conscious creation. Five Steps to embracing the life of your dreams. Please help me welcome TJ Woodward. Good morning, TJ.
TJ Woodward 1:44
Good morning, Derek, I'm so delighted to be here with you. And I just love being in conversation about recovery and how we can live our best life. So I'm honored to be a guest on your show today.
Derek Mehraban 1:55
Well, thank you, we are really glad to have you. As you know, this is the recovering CEO, we are here to help people who may be suffering from addiction, or maybe they have loved ones who are dealing with addiction. And I know that's kind of what you do, correct.
TJ Woodward 2:07
That is kind of what I do. Absolutely. And I really have a particular point of view around recovery that might be similar to some others, and might also be completely different to some that we have, you know, had in our consciousness for the last 100 years or so.
Derek Mehraban 2:25
Okay, so tell us, you know, what is conscious recovery? And why did you start it? I'm very curious.
TJ Woodward 2:30
Well, conscious recovery, I guess the Semi long version is I started conscious recovery, I'll go way back to my early recovery. When I was about 18 months to two years sober, I found myself suicidal. And it was because I hadn't really addressed the underlying root causes of my addiction. I'm very fortunate to have been sober. It's now 35 years, I've been sober. And I started working in the addiction treatment field roughly 15 years ago. And I quickly noticed that most of the modalities were treating symptoms and behaviors and people were getting these tools to help them in their recovery. And then they were going out into the world, drinking and using it again, coming back to treatment. So I became really curious about how we could help people heal the underlying root causes. And, you know, really goes back to my own story, because I met a woman when I was 18 months sober, roughly, that changed my life that really helped me reconnect with my true nature and start to finally address some of these some of the past traumas and the disconnection I was experiencing, and the shame and so I've created conscious recovery. First, it was a book than a workbook. And now it's a curriculum that is run at treatment programs all over the United States. And I'm deeply honored to share really what saved my life and hope that it will also help save other people from, you know, dying from addiction. And, and also, in addition to that, just living a life that's not connected and on purpose.
Derek Mehraban 3:59
Wonderful, wonderful. So meeting with this woman, when you're 18 months sober, really kind of helped transform your life, which now you're helping transform other people's lives. Tell us some of the principles that you teach. Tell us tell us about a little bit.
TJ Woodward 4:11
Yeah, so the foundational principle, or maybe we could say the first principle, and this is perhaps the most important is underneath all addictive behavior is an essential self that is hold on perfect. And this is what really saved my life because I felt so damaged, so broken, I felt like I was beyond repair. And I see that with clients that I work with. I along with seeing people come back to treatment over and over and over again. One thing that really stood out to me is people wanting to get sober and they had so much shame. So this idea, this idea that what would happen it's really a question what might happen if we were to view our clients through the lens of wholeness rather than brokenness, that became a mission in my life because you You know, well meaning clinicians have been trained to diagnose and treat. And of course, it has a place. And in addition to that, there's often I think, maybe a bit unconscious people are looked at as broken or damaged, and a lot of counselors and clinicians think, okay, you're broken, and my job is to fix you. And I don't think that paradigm really actually helps heal. It just continues to we're in this cycle of people getting some support, getting the tools they need, and then coming back.
Derek Mehraban 5:31
Well, that's wonderful. Because, you know, I've noticed this to TJ, because I've been sober 25 years, from drugs and alcohol. But addiction kept creeping into my life, you know, there were still other ways that I wanted to numb and check out. And as I've learned, as I'm learning, it's really a journey, TJ is if I don't address the the initial harm and trauma, I'm never gonna get better, right? Would you say?
TJ Woodward 5:52
Yeah, that's exactly it. And we see that time and time again, someone will get sober, let's say that they are able to get sober from drugs and alcohol, if that was their primary issue. And then addictive sex comes up or shopping comes up or eating comes up, or relationships. That was 100% true in my life. And I would love to tell you that I met Mary Helen, this woman that changed my life, I reconnected with my true nature and never had another issue with addiction. But that just is not my story. It's been a journey of recognizing my own wholeness. And it's been a journey of noticing what happens when I believe I'm broken, or when I believe that I am my trauma, or the it's just too scary to look at. And when I got sober 35 years ago, the paradigm was Don't worry about any of that. Just don't drink today, and your life is a miracle. Go help someone else. And so I was in this cycle of trying to help people in my early recovery, without really healing the trauma. And so yeah, I was running from it. And what I was running toward was all kinds of different addictive behavior. And that cycle became so painful. So my hope with conscious recovery is that we can provide these tools and it's really not tools, it's really a way of being that helps someone reconnect with their true nature much earlier on. So they don't have to have these years of like, just shifting from one addiction to another.
Derek Mehraban 7:15
Oh my god, yeah, I used to talk about kind of spinning the wheel of addiction. Like which one am I gonna choose today, you know, cuz I can't deal with reality. It's funny, because back in the day, like you said, like when I first got sober, like, I slept a lot, I ate a lot of ice cream. And honestly, I masturbated a lot. You know, I hate saying that. But it's a little awkward. But the point is, I was substituting and I thought I was doing good by just abstaining from alcohol. But the point is, is as I was building patterns of other addictions. Can you give us some stories like how have people healed where they move beyond that, you know, when I could stop using addiction to solve my problems and start using other techniques? You know, can you tell me a story or anything like that, or,
TJ Woodward 7:56
Oh, so many different stories, and it kind of connects with one of the core principles or core concepts in conscious recovery. And that is that addiction is a brilliant strategy, not a coping mechanism or a defense mechanism. And when when someone actually gets that, then they look at how it actually served them. And so I could tell so many stories of people, I, I there was one person that I can think of the person that's coming to mind, I received an email from someone, he had been to treatment 44 times. And he said that he went to a treatment program that was using conscious recovery. And just reading this idea, the question, what if I'm not broken? What if I'm hold on perfect? What if the addiction was simply me trying to experience my wholeness? I write about it in conscious recovery, I talk about it, like we have an umbilical cord in our hand, and we're trying to plug into someone something some behavior to bring relief. And what he told me is, there was twofold one, when he realized, Oh, my addiction wasn't bad or wrong. It wasn't about getting rid of it. It was about being curious about it, what within me felt disconnected, and how I was trying to plug in, and in his case, 40 times in treatment. And he realized the whole time that there wasn't anything wrong with him or the addiction, but the journey was about reconnecting with his true nature. And what he shared with me in this email is because of that, as the first step, the foundation, he was then able to finally start looking at a lot of the trauma, where it originated this idea of being broken, and a lot of treatment programs kind of shy away from addressing trauma, and I understand why they do but that's part of what keeps this cycle and he said finally, he realized once he started working with the trauma, it was nowhere near as scary as he thought it would be. And it was because he spent some time acknowledging his his inherent wholeness.
Derek Mehraban 10:04
You know, it's very interesting, honestly, for many, many years, you know, cuz I go to five or six meetings a week, you know, for years and years and years. Nobody ever talked about this, honestly, you know, I mean, because there is the 12 steps, right? We we clear away the wreckage of our past and all that, but nobody ever addressed this. Now, it's only a little bit, honestly lately, you know, dealing with finally finding a good therapist where there's a connection. But really, there's, there's a big disconnect, you know, and people are missing that connection. I think that's why they go to treatment so much. Right? So how do they find this? Like, what can they do? If they come to you? I know they can take some classes, is that correct? Or do some learning.
TJ Woodward 10:44
So there are a couple of different ways to access conscious recovery. I don't actually work with clients individually at this point. And it's not because I don't want to I love it, it. There's a part of me that really misses that. But I know what someone really needs. And I know that I'm so busy, I don't have time to give that to someone. So that was a little bit of a diversion from your question. But when someone starts working with conscious recovery, they can do it online. It's a book, it's a workbook, mostly where people are accessing it is in treatment centers. What one can expect from conscious recovery is starting with a recognition that this is really not a destination, but a remembering. And I think that is a fundamental difference. And also what you said, you know, I think there have been so many wonderful changes and evolution in our recovery world in support groups and treatment. And right now, I think more and more of us are saying what about actually starting to try to to spend some time healing this trauma, rather than, you know, I would hear speakers, Derek, and I'm sure you've heard speakers that would tell a horrific story about their childhood and all this trauma. And then they would say, but that's not why I drank, I drank because I have a disease, or I drank because I'm an alcoholic. And we all knew, including the speaker that there was a connection. But there was almost there. I don't know if it was that there was fear to address it. What I really think is at the root of it, and this is true for me is that I hadn't healed a lot of my own trauma. So I wasn't able to encourage others to do it. And so I was on this cycle of don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. And then I heard that one day and realize, Wow, we all know on some level, this is about going back and healing some of the original wounds. And I think more and more of us are now talking about it and doing it.
Derek Mehraban 12:39
Okay. Alright, so, so let me understand this concept. Because, you know, I've always thought of, you know, they talked about aligning my will with God's will. Okay. And in essence, I feel like, when I was in my addiction, I could feel that it wasn't right, right. So I was acting in a way that was against God's intention for me, right. And I could feel it right in my kind of chest, it felt wrong. Because I felt like I wasn't meant to be alone. And I wasn't meant to be just useless. Right? I couldn't hold a job, I couldn't build relationships. So that forced me to then grow and advance spiritually. And as I move forward, I keep trying to align my will with God's will, because I do believe that's important. And in essence, that means following my true intentions, like using my gifts to their greatest ability. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how did you realize what what your purpose was? And, you know, kind of get the strength and the courage to go out and pursue that?
TJ Woodward 13:32
Well, I'll start with the framework about the idea of God's will. I know, in 12 Step programs, there's a focus on finding a higher power and surrendering to that higher power. And I think that's important for many people. And there are also a lot of people that aren't necessarily looking for the idea of a god. Right. And that's okay. I think that's, you know, in some 12 Step circles, I've heard people say, well, it's okay. But ultimately, you're gonna, you know, sort of a side conversation, but they're gonna find God. And so for some people, they do want to find a divine purpose or a being or this idea of a god for other people. And the way I frame it in conscious recovery, is that we came into the world whole and perfect, these beautiful spiritual beings. If we look at the pristine nature of an infant, I don't think any of us can look at this beautiful little being and say, Gosh, you're damaged or broken. And so spirituality for me, is reconnecting with that, regardless of if it's a concept of God or not. So if someone uses that framework, then you could say, there's a God and God has a purpose for me. For someone maybe that has a more a Buddhist approach, or maybe even like they have an atheist approach. Like I'm not looking for a higher power.
TJ Woodward 14:47
Really reconnecting with our true nature is essentially spiritual. And for me, and this is just for me, the idea of God, essence or spirituality or true Nature, whatever word we use is really an inner journey. And it requires me to be still enough and quiet enough to listen to that inner knowing. And so, for me, recovery, a big part of it is unlearning, unlearning all the beliefs and ideas that we've created, that have prevented us from experiencing that. And then spending some time in some kind of practice, whether that's a spiritual practice and meditation practice and mindfulness practice, some way of reconnecting with that true nature, in conscious recovery, identify one of the root causes of addiction as spiritual disconnection. And what I'm talking about with that, is that true nature and how do we reconnect with that, to me is foundational and recovery.
Derek Mehraban 14:47
Mm hmm. Yeah, sometimes I hear referred to my true nature. Now you take it all the way back to being a perfect newborn, which I understand, but I wasn't necessarily conscious at that point, at least to my awareness. But back to that point, like before life ruined me or before lost all my dreams. And my you know what I mean, because we go through that change. And it's really often through bullying, through difficulty from childhood, whatever the trauma was, you know, difficult parents, difficult situation. And then we get more into survival mode, you know, so but so that month, but it must take work, right to be able to reconnect to that self. I mean, that's, that doesn't sound necessarily easy.
TJ Woodward 16:25
A wise person once said, it can take a lifetime. And it can happen in an instant, this insane, instantaneous memory, and it's not a memory, but a re experiencing of our true nature. And I love the way you framed that. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, most of us don't remember being a perfect infant. But a lot of us can remember being filled with joy or happiness, connection, openness. When we were really young, before we got programmed, what I call the pre programmed human before, we're taught about, you know, issues of race, at the age of gender of all the different things we get taught. You mentioned bullying, and that was a huge part of my story. And it was that I took on the opinions of others, and started believing that my brokenness was true. And that that joy that was within me, was untrue. And I disconnected from that. So, you know, I've worked with people that have a heartbreaking story of not remembering that time, they were filled with joy, they came into a family system where abuse happened instantly. And for them, I invite them to look at a small baby and say, Can you imagine viewing that baby as broken? For some of us, we remember, I remember being 4567, and just being filled with happiness and connection. And if you look at what we want to achieve in a spiritual practice, it's innate in a really small child, openness, presence, feeling our feelings, connecting with others, you know, I mean, even the idea of being present with someone. Most of us are taught Oh, it's not polite to stare, but you know, that that presence, that connection is actually vital for human survival. And for me spiritual survival.
Derek Mehraban 18:06
Oh, yeah. I love that TJ and that's, I really, I really enjoy your teachings. And I've been learning more about you and what you do. Because, you know, disconnection, I feel like addiction tries to you know, they always say addiction wants to isolate us and kill us, right? So it disconnects me from people. And when I act out in my addiction, then I get angry at my significant other I am hard on my difficult my kids, I don't talk to people and I isolate. And it's interesting over the holidays, you know, I've always been against playing games, right? I just I never want to play a game because I'd rather play on my phone. I'd rather watch TV, I'd rather do something by myself. But I realized, you know what, Derek The reason I hate playing games is because it's like the ultimate connection. Like when you sit around a table with people and you play a game, I'm forced to not look at my phone, I'm forced to engage. And I'm like, I need to do this. Like it was a light bulb went on for me, I need to do this. This is part of those habits have changed, you know, to connect with people? I don't know. But that's been a big one for me just connecting with people.
TJ Woodward 19:03
Yeah, I love that. And one thing that I like to explore with people is what the benefit of the addictive behavior is, we start with that look at all the ways it's helped us and because what you're speaking to is so true, right? Eventually, substance use addiction isolates us but in the beginning, it might have actually helped at least create a belief that we were connecting up. For those of us who have been around people drinking when we're sober we realize it may not be the most authentic connection, right? But initially it was helping them feel connected. So when we look at it, it's like what was great about it and then ask the question, what do I really desire and is you know alcohol or sex or shopping whatever it is, is that actually feeding what I'm looking for and what you're speaking to is what I really want is authentic connection connection with myself and connection with others.
Derek Mehraban 19:57
Yep, authentic connection, real connection used to chase fake connections, because they were kind of exciting, right? Right until they're not exactly until I'm afraid to answer my phone. Right? Can you tell me about the concept of unharmed bubble? I know that's one of your platforms. Can you teach me about that? A little bit?
TJ Woodward 20:21
Yeah, essentially, it's what we've been talking about. And most people on planet Earth believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with them, whether they have addiction or not, if we if we spend enough time with someone and start really getting to know them, a lot of us have picked up this idea that were broken or damaged. And a lot of the addiction and recovery models actually focus on that as well. What's wrong? How do we help you fix it? You know, whether it's 12 step or treatment, or a therapists office? And this idea, and it I like to ask it as a question, because when I ask a question, I'm curious, when I make a statement, I might agree or disagree with it. And my mind agrees or disagrees, but just everything in the world, right? Because that's what the mind does. But when we ask a question, and we open and we're curious, then we can see what what feels true for us. So the question is, what if there's a place within you that's unharmed and, and harmful? Because in my journey, as I've said, and in working with clients, so many people are like, Yeah, but I'm broken. I worked with a young man who said, I don't care what you say, I am damaged, I am broken. And I worked with him for a while in treatment. And then in my private practice, when I had one and about 18 months in with tears in his eyes, he said, Oh, my gosh, there is a place within me that's unarmed, there is a place within me that's arguable. Having that recognition then allowed him to start doing the deeper healing work, because if I believe I'm broken, and then I'm trying to heal my trauma, it is difficult. It is a process, it is painful, but when I say what, if there's a place within me, that's unharmed bubble? And what would it take for me to have more of an experience of that? Spend time with that? Just exploring that possibility? Well, we'll shift our the trajectory of our life in a powerful way.
Derek Mehraban 22:16
Mm hmm. Okay. That's, that's really helpful. So that person eventually kind of found it or realize that right is like, the layers were removed, and they were able to see it the truth, kind of
TJ Woodward 22:27
Yeah, and feel it right. Just have that felt sense of, Wow, I guess he was one of those people that said, I don't remember feeling happy as a child, I remember instantly feeling that it wasn't safe. Right. And that, and that's it heartbreaking, but often told, experience, you know, someone comes in just the birthing experience itself. It's like, oh, my gosh, I'm in this world. And, you know, I mean, I was pulled out with forceps and put in an incubator. So no wonder I was afraid. Right. And and I want to do I want to say one thing, it's not like, then therefore, it's that hospitals fault or the nurses fault, or, you know, it's, it's more of like, oh, yeah, that's what I experienced, I might not have a conscious memory of that. But I did experience the world being scary. And I mean, that was all the way through until I was around 40. When I started exploring that, wow, I was well into my sobriety, when I said, Oh, my gosh, I've been operating with this deep belief and deep frequency that the world isn't safe, and I was protecting myself. I was putting up walls, and that was great. It protected me. But it was ultimately protecting me from the love and connection I desired.
Derek Mehraban 23:37
Oh, my goodness. So TJ, I'm really enjoying this conversation as you're good to talk to. You know, I've always thought that sobriety gives me the gift of awareness. You know, I always said when I was in my addiction, again, I was kind of unaware of lots of things. And it's interesting is that awareness, as you're pointing out, you said you were well into your, you know, your 40s when you started out, it gets deeper and deeper, right? So we kind of peel the layer of the onion, we learn more and more. And that's kind of the journey isn't that just to keep gaining awareness 100%
TJ Woodward 24:07
That's it and then becoming you know, I A wise person once said, There are three steps awareness, awareness and awareness and those deepened, right and, you know, you and I have heard the phrase, the truth will set you free, but first, it'll piss you off. So some, some of those layers of awareness can be really painful. And some of those layers of awareness can be really joyful and a deep sense of self compassion, self love. It's like I remember as I was peeling the onion, or maybe it was being peeled for me. Because if I resisted it, it's still gonna happen. Or some of those layers were really just, Oh, this feels so good. I'm so happy. I'm filled with joy again. And then another layer is like, Oh, I have to address this thing I've been doing or this belief I've been having and you know, pain. The relationship between pain and addiction is fascinating because A lot of us are using and drinking or, you know, like you said masturbating, I think we don't talk about sex enough in our culture, we bury it. So I applaud you for bringing it up. Anything that we're using, where a lot of it, maybe maybe all of it is about running from the pain or trying to change the pain. And so if if addiction is running from the pain or numbing the pain, then at least a part of recovery is learning how to feel it and learning how to be with it. And I realized what I had been running from for decades wasn't as painful as I thought it was. And it was almost, I remember, someone came up to me once and said, Wow, did it take you 40 years to figure that out? Why yes, it did.
Derek Mehraban 25:44
Some people never do, right. My old friend of mine used to say he said pain growth slide, pain growth slide. He said, it's a cycle in recovery. You know, so you feel the pain, and then you're willing to grow a little bit right, but then you get complacent. You slide back into the pain. Yeah, I'm always kind of reinvigorating myself. So here's one thing, maybe you can help me with that. You know, lately, my therapist asked me well, what are some fun things you can do? You know, what are like positive endorphins, fun things that you could do to replace? And she asked me, and I'm just like, a blank slate? Like, well, I have no hobbies. I can't think of anything. And she's like, well, I don't I'm not surprised, because addicts often don't have hobbies, because they just go to their addiction. I mean, what are some things you do that are kind of like positive endorsing for endorphin producing activities that make you feel better?
TJ Woodward 26:31
Well, I'm going to answer this question in a little bit nonlinear way, which is I do, I think that that is useful. And I think there's something deeper to and that is when I spend time dedicating myself and I'm going to go back to the same thing to reconnecting with my true nature, asking myself the question, what's the highest vision for my life? My third book, Conscious Creation came out recently. And that's really the emphasis of the book is how to listen to that inner wisdom. So then it becomes not what can I do to have fun, but who can I be, and then whatever I'm being in the world, and I know that's not grammatically correct. But however, whoever I'm being in the world, then that's infused with more purpose. So maybe it's not about looking for what's fun. But how can I be more connected with my true nature? And what would it be like if everything could be fun, then, and that's when we it's organic, right? It's, it's a process of like, it's not about like, oh, my gosh, I shouldn't be doing this addictive behavior. As I connect with that, as I listen to the inner voice as I live life more on purpose. And there's a group in the conscious recovery curriculum. And when I used to facilitate it, I would tell clients, I guarantee you in 90 minutes, you're going to know your purpose, and everyone would laugh. And then I would say, I'll give you 100% guarantee that you're going to know your purpose for a full refund from the treatment program, which of course, I couldn't, you know, actually offer, but purpose, as we have defined it, especially in the United States, it's an action, I'm going to be a good father, I'm going to be the best CEO, I'm going to be the best, whatever it is. And in my group, and in my life, I've recognized that purpose is actually a quality, not an action. And when I'm living from that quality, I'm living on purpose. So the group, it's a long process, but ultimately, we get to three words that the client or the person identifies for themselves, open, loving, present, and then we invite us to, like, write those three words down. And if I feel off kilter, or if I feel like life isn't fun, or I feel like I'm in complex, remind myself of those three words, oh, yeah, that's who I really am. When I'm living from that. Maybe I don't even necessarily need life to be fun, because it's joyfilled. And that's, I think, a little bit different even than the idea of looking for what's fun. And that was a long answer, but I hope I got somewhere for you.
Derek Mehraban 29:00
No, I appreciate that. I like that. So again, it goes back to kind of your true nature and purpose filled. And if I'm living a purpose filled life and a joy filled life, then I'm not. I don't need the addiction, right. I don't need to, to numb out because I'm enjoying it. So okay, so TJ, we are kind of coming towards the end. So tell us a little bit how can how can our listeners follow you engage with you? And do you have any, like, parting messages that people could take some wisdom to share?
TJ Woodward 29:29
Yeah, the best place to follow me as on Instagram, it's TJ Woodward underscore and I post there, there's links there to the books to the courses, all of the different ways you can access conscious recovery. If you own or operate a treatment program, we can talk about how to integrate it into your system of care. What I want to say in closing is what we've been really talking about and I'll speak directly to someone who's watching or listening now, and that is if no one's told you today, you are a whole imperfect spiritual being You came into this world with this perfection and it's still there under maybe under layers of beliefs or ideas or traumatic experiences. And what I know to be true is that your purpose is to rediscover that and live as that in the world.
Derek Mehraban 30:17
I love that man. You just inspired me and gave me tingles. So. So TJ TJ Woodward, very, very grateful for you to be on the recovering SEO podcast. We will stay in touch and help our listeners follow you and learn more about conscious recovery. So have a good day my friend. Thank you so much. Thank you
