The Recovering CEO 0:01
Welcome, everybody. My name is Derek. I am the recovering CEO and I'm pleased to welcome you. This is actually our first official video podcast, we have a very special guest, all the way from California. His name is Dr. Time grant. He's an internationally award winning media psychologist, published researcher, doctoral addictions counselor and educator with specific expertise and technology's impact on mental health. And how are you doing today? Dr. Grant's?
Dr. Don Grant 1:01
I'm still here. So I'm good.
The Recovering CEO 1:03
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here. You know, and, as you know, on the recovering CEO, we talked about recovery and addiction. I think we talked about a little bit, you know, I'm in recovery. I know you're also into recovery as well. Is that true?
Dr. Don Grant 1:18
Yeah, I've been my sobriety date is August 26 2001. So a minute, just for a minute.
The Recovering CEO 1:25
Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah. So you know, the reason we do the recovering CEO is really to help people. And we've never really talked to anyone who deals with Device Management addiction, I know that it's just a growing growing area. Tell me a little bit. How did you get into that? And why are you so passionate about it?
Dr. Don Grant 1:42
Sure. I would love as you know, I would love to take credit that this was some idea that I'm some no stretch Adonis. Yeah, that's a joke on my name, Don, I would love to tell you that, but it's just not true. So you know, as people in recovery, we have to be rigorously honest, or I'm gonna have to call my sponsor, which I always try to avoid. I never want to do that, which keeps me kind of within our code. So I'd love to take credit that I suddenly had this epiphany I didn't, at all. So I am what is called are what we call a digital immigrant. Do you know what a digital immigrant is Derek? That
The Recovering CEO 2:20
I'm not sure why don't you help me? Yeah, I don't.
Dr. Don Grant 2:24
So there's digital immigrants and digital natives is what we call them. I'm a digital immigrant, meaning that I did not grow up with computers and an Xbox. It was computers came along at a certain point in my life. So I had to make the decision to bridge the chasm and decide was I going to start learning about them. And so it just is something that I wasn't, it wasn't my, my born right to just have all of these things, right. However, I am the father of the first generation of digital natives. So my two daughters are digital natives. They do not know a world without iPhones and, and Playstations and Spotify, and they don't know that. Yeah. So I try to be good dad. And my, I'm not gonna lie, my princess is my two daughters are amazing. They have me wrapped around their fingers. And they can pretty much get anything they want out of me. But they deserve it. They're great. So at a certain point, one of them came to me and she wanted this thing. And it was called an iPhone. Yep. I don't know about anything about that. What we knew, and I'm going to test you a little bit. Okay. The thing that I knew which changed our world was something called the Blackberry. Now, Derek, do you remember what people call the Blackberry?
The Recovering CEO 3:48
Yes, the Crackberry.
Dr. Don Grant 3:51
Is that right? Crackberry. And those of us in recovery, because this is something that everyone said, so those of us in recover, were kinda like, okay, but we get it. But we thought it was funny. Looking back, now we're like, oh, my gosh, we need to know what was coming. Because that's what I knew. And the BlackBerry was great. But then this iPhone came out in 2008. And my daughter wanted one. Well, okay. So I got it for her. And something happened very quickly that we now know or we could call it a form of cyber bullying. It was, it was she was left out of a picture that all her friends had gone to the beach and written BFF. And she was not told about this excursion, and she saw it and it caused some feelings, let's just say. And I realized that I had handed my daughter a potential weapon that I did not understand. And so I needed as a good dad to understand that I mean, I'm not going to give my daughter a set of power tools, or without knowing what probably work and offering some safety but we didn't know none of us knew. So kind of like Newton discovered gravity hashtag fake news. Do you remember how the story goes how Newton discovered gravity,
The Recovering CEO 5:13
and apple fell off the tree and hit him in the head?
Dr. Don Grant 5:18
Metaphorically, the same thing happened to me the Apple was an Apple iPhone and fell out of a digital tree and hit me in the head. I'm going to I would love like I said, to take credit, it was not that it was just timing. And I realized that I needed to know about this thing. I was just trying to be a good father, I started looking into what this thing was I'd handed her and what it could do. And 14 years later, I get to talk to people like you and get to do all of these things. In the meantime, I have researched I have published, there were many years, I'm not going to lie where I was wondering and concerns you people weren't going to care, as I'm going out and talking about this and talking about this. And I'm looking at people that were looking back at me going what, and but I also at the same time, entered a doctoral program. And so I dedicated my doctoral work to become a media psychologist. And this has been kind of the journey. But that's how it all started. It was because of my kid and the apple. And what I will say is that I don't think I was wrong. All those years, I was sweating it and worrying, did you people care about this? I don't think I was wrong. And if the pandemic taught us anything. Now, I think that, you know, it's been evidence what will happen if we become too reliant on these things. Now, I want to say something I say every presentation, every one of these kinds of things. I am not anti technology. I use it all the time. The fact that we can use it right now, and spread the word is amazing. I am not at all anti technology. I teach healthy device management, and the practice of good digital citizenship. So I look at these devices as tools. Yeah. And a tool. Hammer is a tool, it can build a house, it can destroy a house. So I just want to make that clear, because sometimes people think, Oh, he's the anti guy, or are they put it in recovery terms? Oh, you're talking abstinence from? Okay, really? abstinence from technology? Impossible. That's not reasonable. I want to make that clear.
The Recovering CEO 7:24
Yeah. You know, before we go further, first, I want to commend you for being a good dad. You know, I remember,
Dr. Don Grant 7:30
because I have two daughters. Now my kids.
The Recovering CEO 7:33
Yeah, well, I have two daughters, too. And, you know, one of my greatest regrets, or really, one of my wife's greatest regrets was given them an iPhone so young, because you think it's a privilege to give your kid an iPhone young, but then they just like fall into it. It's like falling into the black hole.
Dr. Don Grant 7:48
So we didn't know, we didn't know, we didn't know, we still you know, the fact that I'm able, because I'm going to tell you, I took out, you know, this was a pretty extensive endeavor when I went back to get my PhD in this. And it was student loans. And if I was wrong about this, of the many Fails of my life, if I was wrong, and it invested, that it would have been probably one of the most epic fails. So the fact that people don't know, but that now they're interested, thank goodness for me, because I really was concerned about it. But now, don't don't beat yourself up. We didn't know, parents still I do parent groups all the time, they still don't know because we're digital immigrants.
The Recovering CEO 8:30
Yeah, well, I'm an immigrant, too. So tell me about how has the pandemic, you know, everyone's staying at home? Lack of socializing? How has that impacted device use over the last few years?
Dr. Don Grant 8:41
Sure, um, you know, I'm gonna say this first. Thank goodness, we had it. Because the idea of not being able to be connected, if we hadn't had these these things, that would, uh, you know, I don't know what that will look like. But I will tell you that one of the things that happened was that what I'm working on now, I should say is, we became so reliant. And people were investing, investigating and started utilizing platforms and apps that they never would have or they'd resisted, but because of the pandemic we were forced to. So what I'm looking at now Derek a lot and have been looking at and throughout the pandemic was one of our behaviors around devices are going to end up being short term forced adaptations to connect and what are going to end up being lifestyle adoptions. So that's the thing I'm trying to untether to help people remember the valence, vitality and value of IRL as a kid say in real life connection, but there was a lot of behavior behaviors that as media psychologists and people who do what I do, knew were coming, but we thought we had about 10 years to get ahead of it. What happened was that the pandemic and the confinement laughs that time. So I'm just going to give you some examples, certainly academics, the idea that school can now be online, the idea that the prejudice against online, especially universities, Oh, you went to what school and it wasn't brick and mortar that's removed, which is great, because it opens up a lot of higher education for more people, commerce, shopping, communications, certainly business. And I don't know that we're ever going to return to the before times, certainly things with work, you know, the employers were never equipped to do have people work from home or even do a hybrid. But now, it has been proven because it was forced to that it can work. And what's going to happen is the digital natives are going to be the decision makers in a few years, and they lived through knowing that working from home, and hybrid work, can work. So any of us who are resistant those of us know, you got to go in the office, you got to be in the office five days a week, we're not going to be the decision makers, and they have evidence themselves and they want to even my own kids, they're like, oh, you know, I could work I don't like going in the office every day. And they've seen that the efficacy of it, and it can be successful. So that will change. What is lost? Well, certainly connection, certainly. I mean, there's the the tsunami of emails, and the lack of boundaries now 24/7 ways to communicate with us. And we're all gotten used to emailing even through work 24/7, and threads that just go on forever, instead of just walking across or picking up the phone. So we become really comfortable. And even those like us digital immigrants, who said, for example, I heard this, I would never grocery shop, I like to pick the tomato. Well, during the pandemic, those of us who really weren't facile with these platforms and apps, suddenly, were forced to use them. And now I'm wondering, will we return? I use this example. There's certain things that I'm very concerned about. And I've been concerned about for a long time and call me an email, call me in there, I don't care, I will hold to the written love letter, photo albums and pictures that are actually hanging on my wall. thank you notes that are written I'd write him as a kid. So these things you don't miss what you don't know. So I'm worried I've been worried all along before the pandemic about some of the things that the digital natives just don't know or don't see the value of. And I'll Pinterest that I'll get back to that in a second. Because what I wanted to really promote is the idea that if we do not see the value of something,
then we're not going to invest in it. So as we start to get moved back out into the world, and certainly over here, I don't think you'll disagree with this, I hope not my belief. And I know I'm not the only one shares this that in terms of recovery, connection. human connection is the antidote for addiction. And ironically, my first research study, Derrick that was published, was back in the day, and I did an investigation and comparison of face to face versus online support. And I framed it around Alcoholics Anonymous. And actually, I didn't know what's going to happen. I just started to see in 2004, or five and six, that chat rooms in a in sobriety support was going online. And I was wondering about the efficacy because I went to church basements and drink coffee. And I know that fellowshipping you know, so I proved the research proved and it was they got pretty got some nice exposure, I proved that gathering together of any doesn't have to be recovery, but any kind of support group, face to face is the way to go. And that online is great. And if there's nothing else, we should use it. But it doesn't have the same impact or sustainability. So when we all went into confinement, and we all started doing all this online stuff, people were saying, Oh, this must be killing you. I say I do say in the study, if there's nothing else, my concern is that as we move out, that we move back out and start connecting again. My concern is that the digital immigrants, the digital natives, sorry, don't see the value of it.
The Recovering CEO 14:35
Yeah, that's that's so interesting. Dying because actually, I was on a meeting this morning, and we were talking about, they were talking about the family how the recovery family is, like such an accepting place, whereas maybe my family of origin was difficult. I mean, they were okay, but, but now, my recovery family, like we're loving and accepting and they help people and I was telling people I'm like, you know, it's great. It's great to be on a Zoom meeting. It's great to be on a phone meeting. You need to go back to your home meetings. You in your home towns, because that connection is so key, and I went to a meeting last night, and it was like, packed, you know, the treatment centers were all there. And it was like, there was no seats. And we were still wearing masks. But um, but it was it felt good. You know, it felt good to be home. So different than being on a phone call with you know, 20 people.
Dr. Don Grant 15:18
Yeah, this is, you know, this is another conversation, maybe. But I wrote a couple of articles that was very kind to be invited to contribute. And I was looking at just in terms of recovery, I and I wrote about the difference between face to face, and you know, brick and mortar in real life meetings and online meetings. And one of the I had a lot of concerns. Certainly, I love that we can be connected, and I got to go to meetings all over the world. It was great. And it got us through, but I worry about some things, certainly the ability to be of service, and also the newcomer. And because the fellowship is important, but again, that's another thing. And I wrote that, you know, I did that investigation, just my thoughts about it. But in terms of now, and in terms of, you know, how we're going to move forward, there's no going back. But it's making sure that we don't become so invested in online things. And like I said, there's people who resisted shopping. Oh, you know, there's things that I'm afraid we've lost. Besides scrapbooks and photo albums and writing letters. And thank you, you know, people might think those are silly, but I pay attention. And there's a few things that I'm concerned about. I don't think that Nicole Kidman needs the money. I could be wrong, I don't know. But I started seeing her doing commercials for AMC. And I don't know if you've seen those haven't. And I started thinking why. And I went, oh my goodness, because it's the death of the movie theater, because we all now learn how to stream and, and screens for watching movies and media are going to be there already are huge, they're going to be our whole walls. So I see that there's trying to be a thing of remember, don't forget about the movie theater. malls are just an endangered species, because people have just learned it's called Amazon. So the idea of gathering places and places where we come together as human beings, we're social animals. And so we used to gather, you know, around the fire back, you know, in the old, old early days, and then we gathered in the town square, or the churches or, you know, we came to town on Main Street and or we came together for picnics. And then as we before fast forward, like when I was growing up, we hung out at the mall, where we gather sort of gathering places for humans were our watering holes. And what concerns me is because we do need that face to face connection, in my opinion, and my research proves it. And there's many studies that talk about how important that human connection is. That's in real life. I worry about where our gathering places there now, zoom. Yeah. And that, to me, is very frightening. And once augmented reality, especially virtual reality and AI become more mainstream, which, again, we knew it was coming. But because of the pandemic and forced need, it's a lot of things have been accelerated. Once we go into Ready Player One, I'm worried we won't come out of it. So where are going to be are in real life gathering places. And also, when we're in our in real life gathering places, which has been something this this point I've been talking about for a long time, we are still on our devices, we're in what I call absent presence, meaning we're in a gathering place where there are other actual human beings in corporate presence. And we're immediately we're all in absent presence on our devices, and we're missing organic bits per connection all over the place. So that's something I talk about a lot the difference between being an absent presence, or present presence when you are in a real space in a gathering place at our watering holes as human beings. And that's something you know, these are the things again, please read these are the things just a few of the things that keep me up at night.
The Recovering CEO 19:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, I know you've done research on like good digital citizenship, and, you know, guidelines, whether it's for professionals or teenagers, you know, what are your thoughts on that as far as guidelines to stay? right sized or appropriate?
Dr. Don Grant 19:33
Yeah, this one is a little simpler to me. So with kids, when parents asked me this, because we don't know what's going on what they're doing online, you know, and I'll tell you, I try to keep ahead of this every day. It's a lot of work. But state of the art in the morning with technology is obsolete by noon. And I work with kids and I work with teens and have a treatment program through Newport healthcare. In Santa Monica that treats teens and families. I tell parents who asked me all the time how the good digital citizenship and to me it's simple, early and continually. I think that the baseline is the expectation is to the kids that you will behave online, the same as you would in real life. So our values, whatever your family is, whatever your values, your thoughts, your expectations of how to behave, when you're actually in real life. I feel those should be the same online. Now. There's something called the online disinhibition effect. Have you ever heard of that? It's okay, if you haven't geeky things like, that sounds cool. So, yeah, well, the online disinhibition effect has been around for a while. And what it means basically is behind the protection of a screen like we're doing right now, or texting, you know, things that are digital communication. Online, disinhibition means that we'll be more disinhibited, when we're protected by the screen, in the veil of cloak communicated mediate mediated communication, meaning that we're more apt to say and do things online. And behave in ways protected by the screen that we would not do in real life. If someone was in front of us. Now, I want to make it clear, there's some really good parts about this. People are exploring certainly recovery, you know, I was very, I would love to say I good, happy, joyous and free into my first meeting, I didn't go happy, joyous and free 2000 meeting. And I had a lot of things about that. I'm not gonna lie, I have to be honest. And there's witnesses anyway. So it's not like, you know, there are people who saw this. So for people who are and I call it the magic MRM. I know. So for people, and certainly I promote that to make it clear, my research is behind it face to face connection, and being but being in real life, but and I should say, there are some really cool ways for people who aren't sure. And when I say the EMI, EMI not it can be EMI or not having to do with addiction, sexuality, gender, poly, it can be anything if you're trying to explore something, but you really feel a little awkward or you don't really know that you could walk into a space with other people being able to investigate that, through the online disinhibition effect is not a bad thing, as long as you're safe. And there's not predators coming at you. Right, right. However, it can also be used in dark ways, certainly with the kids cyber bullying. I think if anyone's online, we've all seen these troll threads where people come at us or come at people Kancil culture, certainly people will say and do things online and have, you know, disingenuous profiles. So that's where it gets a little tricky. So for kids, whatever your family feels, how people should be treated in person. That's how I feel that you should have the same expedition online,
you were with the thing you were talking about, about professional. So I'm, I'm very grateful. You know, I've worked on this for a long, long time. It's been 14 years now. And the American Psychological Association has been very supportive of my work all the way they were the ones with the study where I basically made I prove that Alcoholics Anonymous especially and other support groups are face to face are the best and strongest way. There's not they're not the only way. There's lots of ways and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do that. But they APA has been really great with me. And so they created the device management and intelligence committee and Dr. Joanne Broder, who's my writing partner, was the president of division 46, which is the Society for media psychology and technology. And she, and they created the device management and Intelligence Committee, which is part of APA and part of the division, which is great, we've been able to really do some cool things. I am very grateful that this year I am actually the president of APA division 46. And certainly it's it's it's really cool to have come to this place after I think about when I quit, just try to be a good dad to my daughter. But it I've got a lot of things because it's post pandemic, then I'm very grateful. It's president I get to try to help people with however, one of the things that concern me regarding professionals, and again, if anyone's online or in any social media. I don't think I even need to go and explain. We've all seen things that we say oh my goodness. Oh ye you or awkward, or something that's very disclosing. We're so busy trying to harvest affirmation likes followers, shares hearts, from people, most of whom we really don't know, if we're honest. I try to remind people that because we're so busy looking at that, we might forget about the people who were out there who are making judgments about our posts, the way we write typo, or grammar problems, all kinds of things. They might be making judgments we will never know, there, because we're don't look at that side, we only see the formations were so busy trying to harvest. So I just remind professionals especially and everybody, but professionals, that you can lose opportunities, and again, free speech, do whatever you want. I have people who call me and say, Hey, should I post this? Or can you read this, but I'm going to show you something because this is a pretty good example. As far as professionals, yeah. Doctors and clinicians cut out still, if there's even me to have magazines any
The Recovering CEO 26:11
other cut the address? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Don Grant 26:14
How about the address? Why'd they do that?
The Recovering CEO 26:17
Because people will go find them or robbed them?
Dr. Don Grant 26:22
Because it's privacy, right? Yeah. So yes. So professionals or in offices, they'll cut out their address. Yet these same people are posting everything online, where they are where their kids go to school, where their houses I really I say to people, okay, I love that you went on vacation. I'm super FOMO, I've got fear of missing out, I really wish I was on vacation. But you might want to wait until you get back from your vacation before you start telling the Digi verse that you're out of the country for two weeks, and then you come back in your house has been robbed. But it's also just protecting ourselves and protecting our reputation and also our brand. And also if we're affiliated on social media, and we promote and and any organization, we better make sure that whatever we're posting is aligned with the ideology of that organization. But I so we I was concerned and looking at this for a long time. So what we were able to do with my, with the device management and intelligence committee, and we've been working, we worked on it for about six years, is that we started looking at some guidelines, they're not rules, they're not regulations. They're just suggestions from my committee, Dr. Bronner's in my committee of how professionals might want to look at engaging online. So we came up with, I don't know, I'm making this up at. And then over the years, we distilled them down, we edited them, we peer reviewed them, and we came up with a final 12 guidelines suggested for professional engagement online. And we were kind of coming with how many Yeah, exactly a magic number coming how many? Well, for us, but we came, we're trying to come up at the very end after we had the peer reviewed and and how many were were we going to do? And so my committee, they said the number that was right. 10 That's good number to round number. And there could have been 10. I said, Why don't we 12? And the committee, my committee members Oh, like a dozen, like, like, yeah, like it doesn't Yeah, wink wink. Only people who know know why I because it's my committee there. Oh, of course. Of course, of course. Right. I got to leverage and flex on that a little bit. But only those who know, know why I wanted to do 12 Apa recommended suggested guidelines for professional engagement. And so that was kind of a cool project.
The Recovering CEO 28:53
Yeah. Yeah. So Don, this is very interesting. You know, and you've been talking about a lot about devices, social media, things like that. What about gamers? I know there's a lot of people out there that are they play games, they live stream their games on Twitch they spend all day long on it? Is that a problem as well? Or? Not so much?
Dr. Don Grant 29:13
Well, look, nothing's a problem. Unless it's a problem, right? So what I look at is this same because my background is in addiction. You know, I became a I was a drug counselor before I was a psychologist. So just to blanketly say anything is a problem. That's not fair. I do it this way. So when I hear there might be a problem. I treat it the same way as when I assess for Is there a problem with substances? And I do it this way. I really carefully investigate is this behavior, whatever it is, it can be anything it can be golf. Is this behavior something other golfers say, Wow, I think Where'd that come from? i Sorry, I just use I made it up just See, I can't see it but I think does it is this behavior does it negatively impact impede, subjugate or or at all negatively influence, biological, psychological, sociological career or academic or environmental health. So, I look at all of those as same as I do assessments and I wrote instruments of assessment for device shoots and I look at all devices, you know, whatever social media it's gaming, all of the things and I wrote those instruments based on my background experience and working with so many instruments to assess if there's a substance issue or an addiction so basically, to me it's the same thing here it's and if I find that whatever the behavior is, for example, gaming is impeding biological for example, we that looks like the gamer is really their, their their weight and as changed and not a good way that's healthy their socialization or let's go biological, their you know, their body has changed. They have carpal tunnel there have eyestrain, their back strain, you know, I'm making up a few psychological are they completely you know, the cortisol and, and dopamine and adrenaline that's all that's flowing through a long term gamers brain, is that causing anything? Are they depressed? Or they have anxiety, sociological have they divested all of their friends, and they're sitting in their basement? You know, gaming for a week? Academic? Are they not? They're doing poorly in school? Because they're gaming and not doing the homework? Or career? Are they gaming at work? Are they too tired? Because they're up all night on these, you know, playing a three day run a fortnight I look at these things, environmental, is it something that's causing problems or financial, you know, I look at these things. And then we talk about it. And it looks like the behavior for example, gaming is unhealthy or impacting in a negative way, some other part of your life, what do you want to do about it? That's how I look at it. And so for gamers, I'm not going to say gamers are not the gamers is a whole different animal. I've heard horror, I've heard stories that I believe that that are unbelievable, about parents, and you know, they're trying to get the PlayStation or the Xbox away from their kid and bites them. And you know, they're so that's how I look at it, though, whatever your online engagement is, I treat it the same way as anything because it can be considered in the, in the line of what we call a process addiction. Even though the digital things are not addiction yet, but we're trying online gaming disorder is something that task group that that has been working run by Dr. Judge genteel, who has been working on this forever and some other people and I was fortunate enough to be a part of this a little bit, trying to get the gaming in the DSM, which is the diagnostic, you know, the manual for psychology. So it's now in its fifth edition. So trying to get online gaming disorder in the next one. So it is actually a legit diagnosis. To be honest, because I'm transparent and truthful. I don't sugarcoat we're trying to do it, because then insurance will pay for it. Right? Pay for treatment. Rest of the World has the World Health Organization in 2019. They said this gaming is the thing. We're a little behind in America. i My prediction is it's if it makes it which hope it will, it will not be online gaming disorder will just be gaming disorder. But we'll start there and get a foothold because people who call any thing behaves with devices addiction. It's not legitimately identified as an addiction yet, so we're careful. I can call it dependence. That's why I call it healthy device management.
The Recovering CEO 34:01
Yeah, well, even like countries like China, I know has limited. I think it's one hour of gaming if you're under 18 years old. And they've limited it, which you know, is hiking
Dr. Don Grant 34:13
is Gary. Yeah, sorry, Asia has been on top of this. A few years ago, I was trying to go and do a fellowship at the University of Hong Kong to do a research study that I'm working on. But I really wanted to go there because I follow what's going on. And I'm geeky, and I read research and the stuff that's coming out of Asia is really ahead of us. And I wanted to be a part of that mix. Because I've been very fortunate in this country. And I've been able to do a lot of things but I want to go learn from people who know more, I want to be in that mix and ended up instead getting an opportunity to open a treatment center for kids in Santa Monica. So I took that, but there's certainly like South Korea, South Korea has been kind of battling back against the gaming and the cyber cafes and all of that for a long time, China trying to limit they're trying to also have some restrictions on some social media things, but for example, restricting an hour who really knows. Tik Tok, which is the social media of choice now is a Chinese based application. So I I'm not quite sure what's going on over there with the limiting of hours. I know that South Korea has been on this and they you know, they close the cyber cafes and the kids used to go to have to school forever, and then they limited the hours of it. But yeah, it's just interesting to me that limitations, but then tick tock, I, you know, okay, you only have an hour a tick tock, but 59 minutes to
The Recovering CEO 35:50
let's talk about tick tock, you know, so my kids are on tick tock, they spend all day on it. I've seen it. I mean, I know it's a it's growing, it's very popular. Does it have value? And is it harmful?
Dr. Don Grant 36:06
That's okay. Nothing is harmful. Unless, like I said, it causes. I'm all about entertainment value. So I'm fair, Derek. And the kids could have a point they could argue, well, I spent, you know, three hours watching tick tock, well, that's three hours too much. They'll come right back at us, Derek. And they'll say it really because you came home right after work and spent three hours watching sitcoms are a drama, you would rent it from the TV or football or whatever. That's our entertainment. Okay. The history is a little tricky, tic tock came at the right time, because YouTube and I'm not going to go into I mean, it's public knowledge, it's easy to look up and a lot of your listeners may already know. So YouTube used to be where creators would go to make videos and get exposure. But then YouTube got bought by another big social media company, and the creators kind of got marginalized. And YouTube became more for the the big stars. And so the creators who were trying to put their work up there, you know, it wasn't as as much exposure wasn't as financially compensated for them. So we knew those of us who kind of do this. We were waiting, we're trying to see what was going to be the next creator platform for videos, and then tick tock, right. The contrary is a tick tock was last year who's gonna buy it? How are we going to regulate it comes out of China and there was off. Now we're still not sure. But what's been going on now in the Wall Street Journal. And I really encourage your listeners, or your watchers to look this up. The Wall Street Journal last couple months ago, did it's a video it shows how tick tock works, how the algorithms work, and what's really fascinating, but also a little concerning. And they show how they do it is within about eight clicks on videos. Tick tock algorithms know more about us and our partners, they know our preferences, they know how we how what we're interested in, there's a way you can watch the video, it's really well done. I like it a lot. I show it to the kids in my program, okay. And, but if you start looking at a certain kind of thing, especially the dark things, self harm, suicide, the way that a tick tock that way tick tock works is it will take you a start only migrating you toward those videos. And to walk it back and get back to the ones with puppies jumping all over each other is very difficult. It's very difficult to get to move back into the main area. It takes you out on like I just described as a peninsula where just the dark stuff is I was doing some interviews about the kids were diagnosing themselves on tick tock. So they were all getting into these tick tock videos and starting kids. We're just adopting diagnosis, which may or may not be true, but through tick tock videos. There's so much controversy around tick tock. It's it's something I think for entertainment. Sure. But when you start having impressionable young minds, whose frontal cortex is not fully formed, they're having identity issues. They're coming out of a pandemic, they're trying to connect, they want to be cool. I mean, give me this influencer phenomenon. I would probably have a lot and I am saying this and I do say this face to face so I'm not hiding behind this video. Because I've said this in front of people I say okay, I get it. I get the influencer thing. I mean I get it but back in the day, digital immigrant, we should call it posers. So the idea that someone just decides that they are influencers of what and the shelf life of Have an influencer as you if you watch his, like 10 minutes, I was joking that I would like to see them do one of those things. Where are they now? Like we do? Where are the Brady Bunch kids I'm dating? Where are the kids from different strokes? Where are they? You know, where are they now? I
The Recovering CEO 40:17
sure I'm sure that will happen, say
Dr. Don Grant 40:20
influencers and one of my best friend's child who I love who's like a god shout to me is actually a successful influencer. But I tease her about this. I want to do like a mock expert say maybe for SNL influencers? 2021. Where are they now?
The Recovering CEO 40:35
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's one of the number one. Yeah, it's one of the number one career options if you ask a teenager, what do you want to be a lot of them want to be influencers? That's what they aspire to, ah,
Dr. Don Grant 40:47
on my assessment, management assessment, my general one that I wrote about devices training when I work with kids, and I just do it, just find out if there's anything, one of the questions is about, would you want to be an influencer? It's always like, Oh, my God, of course. Okay. Well, what do you want to be like six months after? If you become successful?
The Recovering CEO 41:09
I don't know. Exhale, answer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if
Dr. Don Grant 41:15
you parlayed into something, I mean, that kind of exposure. I mean, the Kardashians made an entire I mean, who are they, they made an entire empire out of it. So if you parlay that into something else, and that's what I'm talking to my friend's child, and she's already got a plan, taking it as a launching platform and using it because, yes, there's companies that would be interested in that if you have 2 million or 3 million followers, and you can you were there products. I mean, that was called a spokesperson back in the day, so if you can take it and not use it for drama, but then actually use it to get exposure, and maybe you could get a talk show? Or maybe you could you know, and I don't know. But there's so many influencers. I don't know quite what the criteria is. But when we look back, where did most of them end up? Talking about that in 2020? They were the top influencer. Right. So you're using it for exposure using it as a jumpstart something else? That's great for it?
The Recovering CEO 42:13
Yeah. So Dan, let's talk about I know you mentioned some terms like, what's the difference between comparing and despairing? Or then Doom scrolling? These are some terms people throw out at you? Yeah.
Dr. Don Grant 42:24
I'm gonna ask you. What do you think comparing and despairing means? Derek?
The Recovering CEO 42:28
Yeah. Well, in terms of social media, yeah. Well, it sounds like you know, those perfect Instagram posts that my friends posts when everything is just right and beautiful. And their lives are perfect. And they have great vacations, beautiful cars, beautiful families, all these things. And then I compare it right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it forces comparison. And I try not to do it, you know, I try and be more aware of it. But yeah. makes you question, you know?
Dr. Don Grant 42:57
Right. So here's because we want solutions, right? My advice, my suggestion, do what you like, I think for social media, it's fine. 15 minutes in and out. If you're spending more than 15 minutes, what do you do in there, it's not and the studies that have been coming out, have shown the pre and post test your emotional feeling before you go on social media. And after never the outcome is if you're the longer you're on it, you know, the when they do and look at the your emotional state afterwards, the dysregulation is profound. So comparing it disappearing, yeah. So I'm looking at your social and I'm like, Oh my gosh, look at Derek's life. Derek is on this great vacation. You shouldn't post those pictures till he gets back, as I've already suggested, because you can come back and find his house, Rob. He's got a great car. Look at this beautiful family. Look at everything he's got, like, his life is so wonderful. While My life sucks, like I never go anywhere. I work all the time. I'm not going on vacation. Why Wow. And you start sparing. Now what we have to remember, social media is all self constructed. It is completely at the discretion of the Creator. It is kind of like our storefront window in a store. It's our store. We are the curators. And so whatever we're putting out there is up to us. There's no oversight, and I will tell you, I'm not saying that people who post are all true, but I know too many cases of people whose life online that is false. What you see and I don't trade and gossip I work in this field I have people call me and ask me and their social media life looks like they are crushing it. And they their real life is in shambles. There's also a correlation that's been established. The more you post on social media, the less life satisfaction you have. So there's an article inverse correlation. So the more you post, chances are, the less life satisfaction you are. I, in when I do presentations, I always include this slide, three times the top, middle and end because I want people to think about and it's my thesis for social media. I don't know about you, Derek. My friends know what's going on in my life, my little circle, they know, I pray with them, they know what's going on, or what's going on in their life, right? So I have no problem with people posting or creating anything. And that's your right, right. But I wonder, what is your real intention? What is your motivation for posting anything? What do you need? And I use examples of some things that are a little out there when I do an actual presentation that are actual social media posts, where people are just, it's like, cry for help sometimes. But I just wonder and I say, Look, I don't care. It's your choice. But before you post anything, what do you need? What do you want? What do you why? What are you looking for? Why do you need to post this? And so I want people to think about that before posting because we also have to remember, even if it's deleted, could have been screenshot could have been saved, it's on a server. Everything from the time we start posting, is archived forever, and being being done in a space. I actually think that if there are aliens, and they start seeing like life with the Kardashians being beamed up and they pick it up, they will avoid our planet. They'll be like, no, no, no, we can just that they leave them. Sorry, not sorry. But we need to remember that and I work with the kids because it's also our legacy. And we don't think about this because we're living in real time, long after we're gone. Our digital footprint will remain for ever. It's our scrapbook. We are writing our own biography with images and thoughts. And so we I teach the kids that I work with I say, Okay, from the time you start creating your digital footprint, meaning you post your first thing
forever. It's interesting to me when I get sometimes a reminder, oh, your memories from this day, even I I mean, I make mistakes all the time. So I will see something your memories of that see something I posted back a few years ago on social media. And I think, Don, oh my god, that is like the digital walk of shame. What were you thinking? I will tell you since as a recovery podcast, and it's about me, I think my higher power, more times that I can imagine that they people didn't have phones and all of that back when so true before August 26 2001. Oh, my goodness, I can't even imagine what my digital footprint would have been like, with the nonsense that that I was up to. So I am really grateful that we didn't have it. But even if you don't have that issue, everything we post becomes forever our legacy. It is it is our autobiography that will exist long and forever after we do. And I also wonder what future generations if you know, I happen to have grandchildren or great grandchildren. And they decide what was great, great grandpa, like, what will they think about what not only I have posted? But what others have said and posted about me? I can think about these things. And maybe no one else does. But I do. That's amazing. That's not just like, I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be McCobb Yeah, but instead of the way it is now seeing an obituary, you know, Don was a loving father. And he did this. That's a one little paragraph if anyone ever finds it, or on if there is some sort of memorial stone or marker, you know, God grant loving father, husband, all those things. Ah, there is now a trail for decades of my legacy. And I'm really thoughtful of that and mindful, and maybe I'm being overly cautious. But the things that I posted, or if I was a 14 or 15 or 16 year old or if I post in a bad mood. I use the whole thing. I one of the recommendations and the people who aren't in recovery will think oh my god, that's like really great. Don't post if you're hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired? And oh my god, hold that. Uh huh. Yeah. And that's for people who don't who aren't in our world, right. And I say that's just a basic thing. Go, it's probably going to be a bad idea if you decide to post when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
The Recovering CEO 49:43
Right, right. Hey, so Dan, I know you're presenting a paper on Attachment this summer at APA. Can you tell me a little bit about the research study about that about attachment?
Dr. Don Grant 49:53
I can, because I can now this was a study that I was talking to you about. I was going to go to Hong Kong to try to do So I've been concerned, it's just hypothesis, but I've claimed it. And I've already presented on it in public, and I've written about it so I can nobody steal, please still, please don't anyone steal this. But I'm working on this study, because I don't know. But I started to look at attachment. And I'm very interested in attachment. And if you don't know what attachment is, there's two forms of attachment. It's all about relationships, and it's insecure attachment, or secure attachment with others caregivers is where it starts. And certainly the goal is to have a secure attachment model. As a child during the developmental stages of attachment, which is very young, we attach to our caregivers, and it helps us learn about trust and relationships. And the goal is a there's a secure attachment. And if we do have a secure attachment bond with our parent or caregiver, then we will probably be able to have healthy and good relationships throughout our life. If however, there's some kind of rupture, or the attachment is insecure for a variety of reasons, and I'm not going to go in, you can read about it your your watchers and listeners. And if there's an insecure attachment, or there's ruptures in the attachment bond, then what we see is throughout a lifetime, without us even knowing it, we struggle with relationships, we can't really make them work, there's insecurities because we don't have that secure attachment bond that was just blueprinted and hardwired into us. So there's that's already been established. It says psychological theory, it's accepted, it's been around for a long time, insecure, secure attachment within insecure attachment. There are a couple of different kinds of that. And I'm not going to go into that you can look that up. I started getting nervous because I observed and I started seeing for years now. I'm watching as caregivers, and parents, and this is not a judgement. Their child is trying to get their attention, and they're on their device is the long and short of it. And the kid is saying, Mommy, Mommy, Daddy, Daddy, caregiver, caregiver and the parents like a minute, it's this, it's one minute, or one minute, and I see it all around. And so I started wonder about the same as I wondered about, you know, back when was online, very face to face support going to be a thing? Because it's all nascent and new, right? So we're learning. But I started looking, I went, Oh, wow. So I started thinking we might be seeing a new kind of insecure attachment disorder, where it's device driven. And it goes back to that absent presence. What it means is that the caregiver is, is there in corporate presence. But they're an absent presence, because they're on their device as their child is trying to get their attention. Now the message to the child is what if you're trying to get mommy daddy caregivers attention, Derek, and the parent is giving you this the message to a little child who's in developmental stage of attachment? What is their what is the message they're receiving? Yeah.
The Recovering CEO 53:01
We don't care about you. You're not important.
Dr. Don Grant 53:06
I had a close colleague of mine actually come to me a few years ago, when I had already started working on this and said, and she is a brilliant clinical psychologist, loving mother, and wife. She's a great mom. And she said, Dad, I think I'm ever problem. I said what she said, My daughter just came to me and said, Mommy, do you love your phone more than me? And the mother said, What do you mean? Well, because you're always on it. And I tried to get your attention. Basically, this is something I've been concerned about, that the parent or the caregiver is has no intention. They're there. But they're on their device in absent presence. So the message to the child is trying to form an attachment is, wait a second, wait a second, you're not important is what it's not true. This I already was working on this, Derek. And then we all started working from home. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is just going to exacerbate it because we saw the Zoom bombings who have kids like try and parents are trying to work and we see the kids and they're like, Go away Go away. Or I imagined like mommy or daddy or caregivers trying to work at home and the kid doesn't know that they don't know that mommy and daddy caregiver is not at work. They're home. So they don't understand that so they're trying to give mommy daddy caregivers attention. Doors are being slammed. Parents are getting frustrated because on a call with their bus shush up, go away. So those I was already worried, and I'm just looking at it, there's just hypothesis about it. But I thought oh my gosh, during the pandemic for two years, the kids love these charts. Small children only see that their parents are home. So I had to start working with parents and saying okay, you need to explain to your child, mommy, Daddy's at caregivers at work. We're not at work, but I'm going in my I'll give them time. frames come and check on them. Because otherwise, the message to a kid who doesn't understand is that they, because they keep getting pushed away. Because the parents were panicking as they're in meetings at work, and the kids knock on the door are coming in. And they're getting frustrated and embarrassed. And so they're, they're just oh my gosh, go go away and close. So that's what I'm working on right now. And I hope I'm wrong. But anyone I've told this to says, don't know that you're wrong. So this summer, the workout in a workshop then presented a little bit so I can claim it as, as my theory, which is researchers is important. But I'm presenting it at the American Psychological Association Conference, in dissent in August, okay. With with a colleague of mine, Dr. Barbara Nozawa, who is the attachment guru, she's with Newport healthcare. And so I explained this to her, and she's an attachment Maven. And when I told her about it, oh, my gosh, you're right. I think you're right. So she enjoined. So I brought her into it, and we're going to be presenting it. And the fact that it got accepted, I'm just gonna say, if you don't know this world to be accepted to present a paper or a theory of the American Psychological convention. Yeah. Well, it means I might not be.
The Recovering CEO 56:21
Yeah, no, it's amazing. I think that's, that's important. That'll be in the Wall Street Journal.
Dr. Don Grant 56:28
Yeah, it's important. Because if it is something that has legs, we need to get ahead of it and start telling parents so that they avoid it with their kids who are in that stage of attachment. But it's also with parents with teenagers, you know, forget the attachment bond has already been formed. But I talked to parents of teenagers, I'm like, How often do your teenagers even talk to you? But I've had teenagers who come and tell me, you know, my parents complained that I'm always on my device, but they're on it all the time. Okay, so the kids will tell me the one time they really decided to ask their parents advice. They had a breakup, they needed something. They've told me they say, Okay, well, I tried my parents, I never talked to him. I tried to walk downstairs, and they were on their iPad, Mom was playing Candy Crush dad was doing whatever he was doing. Everyone's playing Wordle. And my parents I walked by, or I said, I sat down and they were like, Oh, give me a minute. Give me a minute. I'll be right with you kid. Parents may be missing organic bids for connection also, when their kids are coming and actually talking and at dinner, I one of the basic rules that I say is you should no one should have devices at the dinner table, I don't think there's going to be a zombie apocalypse in that hour or your company is going to fall apart. And if there is a zombie apocalypse, just if you stream The Walking Dead, we all know just take the device and put it to their head don't go through their head. So I don't think your company is going to completely collapse suddenly during the our dinner. So in meals, absolutely. There should be no devices or anyone at meals. And the devices when you're with friends or even at dinner should not be on the table. Because if it's on the table, it's on the table. And I talk about when we go out with friends. And these are just small little little tips that I suggest take them or leave them when we go out with friends. And we're have a plan to meet them face to face coffee, lunch, dinner, don't put your device on the table, turn it off and stole it. Because if you put that device on the table, then the message to the other person is that yeah, you're really important. But you know, for better big comes along. If you're with someone be with someone in present presence, put away your device, do not just put it on the table. I equated in real life to when you're at a party, and I've had this happen to me. I'm at a party and someone comes like oh my god, god. And they're hugging me and talking me. But I see them looking over my shoulder. Is there a better big Is there a bigger fish a better bid? And it doesn't feel good to me. So by putting your phone on the table when you're with friends, that's the message and what happens is invariably you will get a text you will get a call and then you'll look at it. Really it can't wait. You're with me right now. Yeah, that will take a better bit.
The Recovering CEO 59:18
Yeah. No, I think those are wonderful guidelines. I agree with no, no foreign at the dinner table. But tell me a little bit about speaking of guidelines. You know, some of this I know you started a PHP IOP program in Santa Monica, helping kids are you teaching kind of some of that healthy device management curriculum there as well?
Dr. Don Grant 59:35
Yeah. I'm not I didn't I have my own program and then COVID Unfortunately, I just couldn't keep it going. The efficacy just it wasn't working online in my own research proved. But then I got an opportunity from Newport healthcare, which is Newport Academy is a treatment program center a treatment for kids, for teenagers and they have residential programs. They have young adult programs. They have PHP nine IOP so when I had to close my program after COVID, I got a call from them and got invited to open a new port Academy, one of their outpatient PHP programs in Santa Monica. And anyone do it. But I talk to my sponsor about it. And when I close my program, which is primary mental health, which is what Newport guys it's, it's it's dual diagnosis sometimes, but it's really primary mental health, which is off the charts. Anxiety and depression amongst teens was stabilized for decades, Derek, and then in 2002, we started seeing this weird, credible increase in mental in anxiety, depression, self harm, and suicide, and what is coming. And we couldn't figure out why I had some ideas about it, but nothing's proven. And then in 2017, they replicated the study, this was pre pandemic. And the it takes about two years to analyze and clean data in October of 2019. Because I'm the geek who gets these alerts on my phone, oh, the study came out, I was hoping the numbers would be done. It's true. Sorry, not sorry. They were higher. And that was pre pandemic, we already know, the pandemic, because we're already seeing it caused even more potential mental health disruption, dysregulation, anxiety, depression, and as we re emerge, so I had the opportunity to open again, with Newport. So we opened up Academy, Santa Monica, which is PHP IOP. for teens, it's mental health. But yeah, I have a healthy device management curriculum I had in my old program that I teach, and I brought it into the Santa Monica site. And the goal is because they have programs all over the country, it was one of the draws, certainly a big one, I will be able, hopefully to take my curriculum across and train people at all the Newport healthcare Newport Academy sites, and be able to help more people because I'm getting too old for this. I can't do it on my own. I'm glad that everyone kind of caught on. And so are the people who, you know, hold my student loans, because I don't I'm not going to default on those because I don't think I was wrong about this, which is good. So I have my curriculum. We're actually right now we're the only outpatient PHP program for teens that has this curriculum i beta tested over the years, it's evidence based, I've been working on it and changing it and making it current. So yeah, I do have that. Thank you for asking.
The Recovering CEO 1:02:31
That's exciting. That's great. I think, you know, helping helping the upcoming generations, helping the kids helping to break the cycle of addiction is, you know, important for me. And, and this is all so new, right? So we need people that are pioneering out there pushing and come up with these theories. So I really commend you, and thank you, for all your research.
Dr. Don Grant 1:02:51
I appreciate that. I actually when you say that one of my platforms is president of my division, is the students because this is so nascent. There was only a few of us, not because we're any rock. Well, I think actually some of my mentors in this are rock stars. I'm big fanboy. But you know, there were just it's a new field. So there's just not a lot of media psychologist or people who work with this just because it's so new. But what am I platforms is present in my division are the students and in fact, later this afternoon, I have a meeting with our student committee of our division and their people, the girls who run it, the two, we call them to Stephanie's they're both named Stephanie. They are just on fire. And I am really invested in supporting I do a lot of educational support. But I really, really am trying to get younger people and students involved in this field because it is media psychology, in general, I believe is a future. I mean influencers aside and all you know all these, you know, but media psychology when we see how much media and how it influences us. And we're seeing it currently, how impacting it is fake news, Real News. It can also do a lot of good things and spread information, but it spreads a lot of bad information. There's so much to media psychology, that I really support the students because I believe that it's going to be a career in the future that is even more vital. As we start to media starts to become even more and more and more and more just trying to keep hold of it and help people with their reactions responses identify what is real. What is legit. keeping people safe online. A lot of bad stuff out there. Parents, you know, I tell parents, you wouldn't let your kid I don't think it was eight nine or 10 Go and say hey, peace out. I'm going to go out and not say what, where are you going? Who are you with how you're getting there? Is there an adult there who else is there? But these parents it's not their fault. I did it too. I told you the story. They letting their kids go online with no oversight, but I that when someone asked me Why do you think the difference is because yeah, that makes sense. You wouldn't let your kid just wander around and play with people you don't know. And certainly in the ditch averse, you have no idea who could be playing with your kid online, you know, do you know, engaging, I said, I think it's because it's a weird phenomenon where the parent sees their kid in their house or in their home. So they don't think they're not in your home, they're an absent presence in your home, they're often some digital playground in a Twitch, you know, chat room, or somewhere on a website. But I tell parents, just remember, they're not in your house, really. You need to know where they're going, who they're playing with. So those are also basic things for parents, don't just let your kid go online, know where they're going, find out the sites they're on, investigate them, find out who's there, talk to your kids about this stuff. And also remember, you're in control, you're paying for these devices, you're paying for the streaming services, you're paying for the apps, this is not just something that you kids just get, they all expected. But it's like we used to think about a car, you didn't just get a car at 16. It was a privilege. And your parents paid for it. So they have control over how you use it. And you better use that I don't know about you or anyone else. When I my parents gave me that old car, which I love that old car. There were rules. There were regulations, I had to take classes to learn how to drive it. I had to be saved, my parents checked. And if I didn't comply, they took away that privilege. And I say so why do you think every kid should get the latest Apple iPhone, it's seven years old. Like it's an entitled thing. Of course, I get my kids and always did. But it's not the same as a car. But because we're digital immigrants. And we're intimidated, because we're insecure, and we don't understand it. And we don't want them to know that we're afraid to ask them. So I tell parents also just remember, these things are expensive, but it's the same. You're giving them a potential weapon as I learned, taking it all the way back to the beginning, the hard way. And I really, you know, I didn't realize that just trying to be a good dad would lead me to be able to talk to people like you, and places like this through platforms that are digitally supported, which is great. I didn't know that back then. But I'm really glad that, you know, I am able now to share my experience, strength and hope with others. Heck, yes.
The Recovering CEO 1:07:29
Yeah. And we'll we'll end on that high note. Dr. Diane Grant, thank you for being here. I will have all your information in the show notes. So if anybody wants to follow up with you and your research, and thank you, sir. I hope you enjoyed yourself.
Dr. Don Grant 1:07:43
Oh, Derek, I want my gratitude. Thank you so much for inviting me. I know, you know, I tell people and I might have warned you don't put a Bitcoin in me because I am passionate about this when you said why are you passionate? I don't know. I just am I also feel like I'm like Hamilton, I'm running out of time. I'm getting older. And we're the last digital immigrants. You know, don't forget to write thank, you know, write them real ones. So you asked by and passionate, but I really appreciate because I know you put a Bitcoin in me and it's just like us concedes and go, go, go, go go. Because there's so much to this, but I am passionate about it.
The Recovering CEO 1:08:16
Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. And so maybe I'm making
Dr. Don Grant 1:08:19
a living amends to my kid. I don't know from all those
The Recovering CEO 1:08:23
100% I'm working on that to living amends. Just thank you for listening to the recovering CEO.
